Life In 19x19

uPWarrior wrote:Or just let people chat in the EGR. There is no Go discussion there anyway..

Honestly, I agree, but I also know that wms et al. will never endorse this. So let's start thinking about other options.

hyperpape wrote:

uPWarrior wrote:Or just let people chat in the EGR. There is no Go discussion there anyway..

Honestly, I agree, but I also know that wms et al. will never endorse this. So let's start thinking about other options.

current policy for EGR conversations is 'sensible discussions need not be moved'

I had been trying to avoid commenting in this thread for obvious reasons, so I'll just make one post and be on my way....

I think the whole ordeal is perfectly encapsulated by two posts already made --

Joaz Banbeck wrote:You can always privately ask an admin why things are done in a certain manner. A private question is usually interpreted as a question. A public question is often interpreted as a challenge.

oren wrote:I'm not sure we're trying to learn any lessons. This is a topic to vent about bad times on online go servers in.

Which is all well and good, venting is healthy. Nevertheless I figured I would go ahead and mention: if anyone has a question or issue with KGS / KGS policy they can go ahead and shoot me a PM either here or if you see me online on KGS (I'm sure most other admins would say the same, but I don't want to speak for them). If you prefer a "public" discussion - I'd also be happy to answer your question in the ECR, or the L19 room on KGS, but as has been stated previously, these types of discussions are not the best for the EGR, after all for many people it would seem these issues border on politics. If I may make one small request though, it would be that if you do talk to me, you enter the conversation with an open mind and with hope of constructive exchange of information. All too often "issues" are brought up not to try and learn, but instead to try and set up an adversarial exchange one can "win" (unfortunately this is often especially true for people who insist on dragging private matters out into public forums). With that mentality, it is virtually impossible to end up with a positive outcome no matter what happens, and all to often just ends up with both sides feeling angry or bitter.

One other comment I completely agree with, but for the exact opposite reason the poster intended, is this one:

Redundant wrote:For me the most damning thing about BigDoug's adminship is that KGS became a noticeably better place once I censored him.

This is an incredibly telling comment, that I feel goes a long way to exemplify the issue at hand. A few years ago, yes, moderation in the EGR may have been a bit more severe and many people were upset about this. Doug ends up being on the receiving end of much of this ire as he is perhaps a little more visible than most admins, and is willing to take on the role of "bad guy" if someone has to do it (it also probably doesn't help that his name is so easy to remember). Now, as Redundant mentions, he has censored Doug (I assume recently, within the last four years) and he has seen a marked improvement! Of course the curious thing about that, is that censoring Doug will put a red X on his name and nothing else*. While the red X may be a source of comfort, I would posit that what has actually happened is things have gotten better, but there is mindset many are stuck in that they haven't done a legitimate reassessment of the entire situation. Instead they still focus on the occasional event that confirms their bias and ignore (or at least not actively notice) any evidence that may appear to the contrary. I think at times it may be useful to try and remove our emotions from the discussion, take a step back and review things objectively.

Sidenote, just because the fruit is just hanging too low --



We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread


_{* All right, I'll admit I can't say for certain censoring Doug would do nothing else -- I believe it may prevent him being paired with Redundant in automatch. The point still holds however, all Doug's chat is still be visible - this is quite easy to test on your own to confirm.}

topazg wrote:Part of the difficulty is there's no place really set up for chatting about non-Go related material that's easy to find. It would be useful if the ECR loaded by default when someone installs KGS as well, as it makes it much easier to say "this room is for Go related chat, that room is for general chat". As it is, a lot of people aren't even aware the ECR exists.

i cant tell you how many times and how many admins ive suggested this to, and not a single one even acknowledged the point. not one. so something tells me they dont want that so they can have their fun moderating more chats

xDragon: You're having a destabilizing effect on the side of the argument you purport to support. To the degree where now others are having to make the point.

"Yes, xDragon deserved it, but that doesn't mean there's not an EGR problem or moderator issues"

I think you might want to withdraw from this argument and let others fight this battle...

xDragon wrote:

topazg wrote:Part of the difficulty is there's no place really set up for chatting about non-Go related material that's easy to find. It would be useful if the ECR loaded by default when someone installs KGS as well, as it makes it much easier to say "this room is for Go related chat, that room is for general chat". As it is, a lot of people aren't even aware the ECR exists.

i cant tell you how many times and how many admins ive suggested this to, and not a single one even acknowledged the point. not one. so something tells me they dont want that so they can have their fun moderating more chats

because the admins have no control over this.

xed_over wrote:

xDragon wrote:

topazg wrote:Part of the difficulty is there's no place really set up for chatting about non-Go related material that's easy to find. It would be useful if the ECR loaded by default when someone installs KGS as well, as it makes it much easier to say "this room is for Go related chat, that room is for general chat". As it is, a lot of people aren't even aware the ECR exists.

i cant tell you how many times and how many admins ive suggested this to, and not a single one even acknowledged the point. not one. so something tells me they dont want that so they can have their fun moderating more chats

because the admins have no control over this.

do they not have easier access to wms than most users?

Its a GO SERVER. Go there to play go. Go to a forum or a bathroom stall to write inane crap. I just kept reading this thread thinking how on earth I would ever manage to get banned from a go server, no matter how "insane" a moderator is. Political forum? Maybe. The mall? Sure. But if you get banned from a go server, its pretty clear you weren't just playing go.

Sorry to sound condescending, but those are my two cents.

Brodie: the thing is, go is actually quite a social game. And the EGR sometimes has some great conversations.

Yes, there are folks like xDragon who go out of their way to antagonize the moderators, but people have gotten banned for the strangest stuff.

I've been banned once, for saying something that I didn't even realize was a euphemism. (And even after looking it up, I think it was just an artifact of someone getting creative on Urban Dictionary)

It was sudden, I had been game-relevant in my kibitz, up until that one line. (It wasn't one of those lines tossed in after the admin had said to stop either)

But I think the admin had had his/her nerves stretched over the course of the day, cuz "Whoosh" and I can no longer log on.


That being said, those problems were resolved expeditiously, and I haven't been banned since. (That was maybe 2 years ago?)

I think the bulk of banning comes from "misuse of the egr". And I agree with others that the main room should allow general chat. Determining what is, or is not, go-related is very subjective, and moderators, like referee's are bound to make bad calls.

I realize that my comment was a little too strong. Obviously I realize that go is social, and more than that, it is a way of life for a lot of folks. No one becomes a dan by being an occasional player. And I'm sure that, as in every walk of life, there are admins that wield their new-found power with a maddeningly excessive swagger.

But its a go server. Its not the town square. You aren't entitled to free speech. I think of it like walking into someone's home. WMS and the admins are trying to create a go server that people can use to play go (and clearly, they've created the one we like the most). The moment you walk in the door you agree to respect their place, and abide by the rules. Unfortunately the internet breeds outlandish, rude, and immature behavior that perhaps puts some admins on a hair trigger, but I'm guessing that in situations like yours, shapenaji, it was a misunderstanding that was cleared up. I simply don't understand the entitlement and indignant outrage of people that act like asses in someone else's joint.

brodie wrote:But its a go server. Its not the town square. You aren't entitled to free speech. I think of it like walking into someone's home.

Really, it isn't. "It's like being in someone's home" has a long and distinguished tradition on the internet, but it's still a horrible simile. If I forget to take my shoes off before using KGS, there will be no muddy footprints on WMS's rug tomorrow morning. If I use KGS while inebriated, there is no risk that I'll stumble and break the Ming that his mother-in-law gave him for Christmas. If I lead a rousing rendition of the Marseillaise in the EGR, it's not going to wake up his kids.

Try to be a little more modest. Amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America do not affect online go servers. There you go - wasn't that easy? WMS is also free to establish an official Church of KGS, to create hereditary Knights of the Go Server, establish property qualifications for KGS elections, and do lots of other things that the federal government of the United States of America really isn't supposed to do. That doesn't mean he should do any of those things, and it doesn't mean the KGS community wouldn't entitled to whine about it if he did.

brodie wrote:I realize that my comment was a little too strong. Obviously I realize that go is social, and more than that, it is a way of life for a lot of folks. No one becomes a dan by being an occasional player. And I'm sure that, as in every walk of life, there are admins that wield their new-found power with a maddeningly excessive swagger.

But its a go server. Its not the town square. You aren't entitled to free speech. I think of it like walking into someone's home. WMS and the admins are trying to create a go server that people can use to play go (and clearly, they've created the one we like the most). The moment you walk in the door you agree to respect their place, and abide by the rules. Unfortunately the internet breeds outlandish, rude, and immature behavior that perhaps puts some admins on a hair trigger, but I'm guessing that in situations like yours, shapenaji, it was a misunderstanding that was cleared up. I simply don't understand the entitlement and indignant outrage of people that act like asses in someone else's joint.

Brodie, you've been in KGS what, 4 months? It takes a little more to see the effects. Being a moderator (just like being a policeman, or even a teacher) gives quite a lot of power, and when people are upset, angry (or are just mean) can misuse their power as easy as snapping fingers. Talking in class? You won't approve this exam. Easy peasy. Shapenaji's case is a neat example. There are "admin rules", I guess. At least I assume before being an admin someone tells you "do this and that". I would assume giving a "beware of what you say" should be a must. And also it's quite easy to see that given how many people in KGS are not English-born speaking people, slipping a bad-sounding slang term (or Urban Dictionary euphemism) can be d--n easy, without ever intending to do it. If an admin is on a hair trigger, he should take it easy, relax and think two times. Just like you (after a bad day at work) would not kick in the... groin your neighbour because he's being noisy.

Mef wrote:
_{* All right, I'll admit I can't say for certain censoring Doug would do nothing else -- I believe it may prevent him being paired with Redundant in automatch. The point still holds however, all Doug's chat is still be visible - this is quite easy to test on your own to confirm.}

Interesting, admins are immune from censoring, even when they aren't in admin mode. I guess I've had the much different joy of just not being online when Doug is. I'd also prefer the ability to censor admins such that they can only speak to me in their official role as an admin (i.e. I cannot see them if they kibbitz or hold other conversations). I'd very much like to apply this to Doug, because independent of his role as an admin, I'd rather not have to deal with his abrasive personality.

Also, I haven't been on KGS for more than 2.5 years ... so I'm very much only seeing relatively recent admin actions.

jts wrote:

brodie wrote:But its a go server. Its not the town square. You aren't entitled to free speech. I think of it like walking into someone's home.

Really, it isn't. "It's like being in someone's home" has a long and distinguished tradition on the internet, but it's still a horrible simile. If I forget to take my shoes off before using KGS, there will be no muddy footprints on WMS's rug tomorrow morning. If I use KGS while inebriated, there is no risk that I'll stumble and break the Ming that his mother-in-law gave him for Christmas. If I lead a rousing rendition of the Marseillaise in the EGR, it's not going to wake up his kids.

Try to be a little more modest.

Fair enough. I am as guilty as anyone of over-using analogies. How about this: He/they built it/maintain it, and if they want to try extra hard to have the space they built meet their standards of discourse, that's their prerogative, not yours. And if you want to leave, that's fine too. But clearly, if you make a thread on a forum about that place, you don't want to leave, because you like the space they built.

I've been trying to be somewhat modest. I just can't relate. Maybe its the southern roots.

RBerenguel wrote:

brodie wrote:I realize that my comment was a little too strong. Obviously I realize that go is social, and more than that, it is a way of life for a lot of folks. No one becomes a dan by being an occasional player. And I'm sure that, as in every walk of life, there are admins that wield their new-found power with a maddeningly excessive swagger.

But its a go server. Its not the town square. You aren't entitled to free speech. I think of it like walking into someone's home. WMS and the admins are trying to create a go server that people can use to play go (and clearly, they've created the one we like the most). The moment you walk in the door you agree to respect their place, and abide by the rules. Unfortunately the internet breeds outlandish, rude, and immature behavior that perhaps puts some admins on a hair trigger, but I'm guessing that in situations like yours, shapenaji, it was a misunderstanding that was cleared up. I simply don't understand the entitlement and indignant outrage of people that act like asses in someone else's joint.

Brodie, you've been in KGS what, 4 months? It takes a little more to see the effects. Being a moderator (just like being a policeman, or even a teacher) gives quite a lot of power, and when people are upset, angry (or are just mean) can misuse their power as easy as snapping fingers. Talking in class? You won't approve this exam. Easy peasy. Shapenaji's case is a neat example. There are "admin rules", I guess. At least I assume before being an admin someone tells you "do this and that". I would assume giving a "beware of what you say" should be a must. And also it's quite easy to see that given how many people in KGS are not English-born speaking people, slipping a bad-sounding slang term (or Urban Dictionary euphemism) can be d--n easy, without ever intending to do it. If an admin is on a hair trigger, he should take it easy, relax and think two times. Just like you (after a bad day at work) would not kick in the... groin your neighbour because he's being noisy.

I'm not sure what we're disagreeing on. We've mentioned most of the same things. People power trip. Everywhere. And if on kgs they truly overstep their bounds, I'm guessing it can be fairly resolved. I for one would not like to see a server like KGS with no admins, and find the occasional overstep to be a small price to pay.

And no, even though I have been on and off KGS for about 5 years, I clearly do not have the investment in it that others do.