These are the kind of moves I have problems with in my games. This is both a reduction to my moyo, an invasion, and a threat to connect with the lone stone at P7 or the one at Q13. I usually play as far away from them as I can, but in this case... I don't know, it seems like this move works very well with my stones, and still allows me to separate his stone from the other two I mentioned. I considered O8, but it seemed too flat and passive.
Even 'a' feels off the spot. I usually like Bill Spight's moves in this type of situation, it seems that he can always pick the perfect spot. Guess I still need a lot of games before I develop that.
It's a good time to switch to the top side and try something there. The point I played feels good to me in connection with my stone at q13. Given the position of my stones, I'm obviously not very interested in living small in the corner.
If Black hanes I will crosscut. Basically I'm trying this to see if Black makes a reading mistake there. After the crosscut a lot of variations are possible. I haven't read all of them but the important thing is that the ladder after isn't working.
His move has all the signs of being a probe: it needs to be answered, I need to pick a direction before he does, and he does not need to follow it up. Okay, maybe he does need to follow up, otherwise my position is much better locally.
There are several ways to answer here, and I was tempted to go with d, and keep his stones all split, but giving him the territory doesn't seem worth it. Especially since with b I can still leave his group without a base, and maybe can still cut it from the center stone.
a and c seem wishy washy, not committing to any course of action, and allowing him too much freedom.
I'll move tomorrow, need to think more about this.
I see. He's just removed the ladder towards the side, so now I only have the unfavorable ladder towards his stone in the middle... I'll have to pick something different, and either start a complicated fight, or force him to get something while I get the other.
Re: 36. walleye (2k) vs. Phelan (7k)
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:41 pm
by walleye
In my experience the crosscut always causes problems to Black in handicap games. But Black has a big advantage in this fight. He moves first and he has a stone nearby at n16. Black can expect to get a great result from this. It's just a matter of deciding what he wants.
Once Black decides what he wants, I will do some reading.
I might not be able to play until tuesday/wednesday afternoon, because of an exam.
They say to always extend from a cross cut... I was still considering atariing and squeezing him towards the corner, but that would leave a lot of cutting points behind, and give him a big and totally safe corner. So the extension it is. Now he can give me the corner in exchange for a more stable right group(that can still be attacked), or take the corner and leave me with the center.
Interesting, I was expecting him to extend as well, not the atari. The same tradeoff seems to be there, corner vs center, but now there's some aji there, I think. Maybe a squeeze? I'll have to pay attention to it.
Re: 36. walleye (2k) vs. Phelan (7k)
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:53 pm
by walleye
$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . X . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X . X . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . X . O . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . X . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X . X . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . X . O . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Again, the only sensible move here. Just moving to my stone at q13, which turns out to be well placed in this situation. I am not really reading or looking ahead here because there is only one move to play.
Re: 36. walleye (2k) vs. Phelan (7k)
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:31 am
by Phelan
$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . X . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X . X . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . X . O . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . X . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X . X . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . X . O . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
or something like that, defending solidly and taking some territory. But Black can take sente after that. This doesn't seem to have any good follow up. At least, I can't see any. So I'd like to defend more actively, at a or b instead of . These leave a serious weakness but if I play passively I might as well resign now.
So, is it a or b? As far as I can see, a invites Black to play a peep and then take sente.
$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . X . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X . X . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . X . O . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . X . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X . X . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . X . O . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So I decided to go with b. I wish I could find something more intense but I can't see anything yet.
Re: 36. walleye (2k) vs. Phelan (7k)
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:13 pm
by Numsgil
Chew Terr wrote:Walleye: Thanks! When someone starts to explain something and says the phrase
sector lines
, suddenly I understand what they're going to say and it all seems intuitive. Clearly, I should be thinking in those terms myself, and not just when things are explained to me.
Dusk Eagle: Thanks, I'll try to remember to consider that move in response to this shape.
Felt this same way. I guess it's just not something I've been formally introduced to, so in the thick of a game it's not how I think. Time to go be formally introduced I guess.
Re: 36. walleye (2k) vs. Phelan (7k)
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:37 pm
by Numsgil
Phelan wrote:
They say to always extend from a cross cut... I was still considering atariing and squeezing him towards the corner, but that would leave a lot of cutting points behind, and give him a big and totally safe corner. So the extension it is. Now he can give me the corner in exchange for a more stable right group(that can still be attacked), or take the corner and leave me with the center.
So there's a good little book on the crosscut that Phelan should check out at some point. Crosscut workshop. Actually off topic but I've found all of Richard Hunter's books extremely useful. Especially the "Counting Liberties and Winning Capturing Races" book. I'd consider that a must have for anyone's library.
But basically, "extend from the cross cut" is a bad thing to have in your brain.
Better: "Extend from the cross cut when you're strong. Atari when you are weak" (I remember this with the nice mneumonic: "weak players atari". Since it has that nice double meaning ). This is usually why you'll see black extend and white atari in handicap games.
Also: "Extend from the weaker side". Black extended from a relatively strong stone (it has nearby stones around it). Better to extend from the other black stone, since it's isolated. At least that's the principle. Not sure about this exact case.
And of course: "capture when you can." But not relevent here I don't think.
Re: 36. walleye (2k) vs. Phelan (7k)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:21 pm
by Phelan
Sorry, I won't be able to make a move today. Probably tomorrow, at the latest on monday. Numsgil, is that post for me to read? I won't unless you say so.
.
isn't working.
). This is usually why you'll see black extend and white atari in handicap games.