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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:27 am
by Bantari
RobertJasiek wrote:
Bantari wrote:As for RJ himself - I have argued with him over the last few years (close to 2 decades now) more than most, I think. And the conclusion I came to is - it is pointless.


To start with, you lost the Japanese rules battle, which kept us (and Geenius at Wrok and John Fairbairn) busy discussing for a good part of the first of the two decades. (You, IIUYC, belonged to the faction claiming that the vicious circle of life and death defined by rules versus given by strategy could not be dissolved.)



I don't really remember the specifics of that, but...

This forum is full of very smart people, which is absolutely great. You are one of them. Given such company, only a fool expects to win every argument or be always right. Of course I was wrong at times, and lost some arguments. Will happen in the future again, no doubt. I would not want it any different or it would be boring. But this is now what I was trying to say... if you read carefully.

What I was trying to say is not that you are wrong or that I was right - but that it seems very hard for you to see things from different perspective than your own, to understand or acknowledge what others are trying to say to you. This is especially apparent (to me) when discussing issues of opinion (for example the Good Sportsmanship debate a while back or the current topic of book 'brilliancy'.) This post of yours, among others, seems to confirm what I say - so I stand by it.

I'll decide tomorrow if there is any point to address the rest of your comments, its late now.
At first glance, they sort-of either confirm what I think or miss the mark.

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:06 am
by RobertJasiek
Bantari wrote:only a fool expects to win every argument or be always right


Sure. There is, however, a strategy for winning a good number of heavy discussions: participate only in those that one, from the start, is confident to win. It is like attacking only when having the knowledge of a stronger board position.

it seems very hard for you to see things from different perspective than your own, to understand or acknowledge what others are trying to say to you.


It is hard for me (and for many others) to accept someone's different view as objectively true if it lacks reasons or sufficient reasons.

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:18 am
by topazg
RobertJasiek wrote:
Bantari wrote:it seems very hard for you to see things from different perspective than your own, to understand or acknowledge what others are trying to say to you.


It is hard for me (and for many others) to accept someone's different view as objectively true if it lacks reasons or sufficient reasons.


Have you considered that in some areas of discussion, such as "brilliance", there is no "objectively true"? The possibility that by its nature, brilliance can be achieved simply by the reader finding it brilliant, and therefore can have a value judgement that is entirely subjective?

I know for a fact that there are some books I consider brilliant (and films), that other people think are just crap. I still stand by my judgement in those cases too :P

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:24 am
by RobertJasiek
topazg, I do not have a problem with that if it is declared to be subjectively brilliant and not pretended to be objectively brilliant.

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:39 am
by topazg
RobertJasiek wrote:topazg, I do not have a problem with that if it is declared to be subjectively brilliant and not pretended to be objectively brilliant.


I agree that where people are expressing an opinion it helps to make it clear that's what it is, but you may be asking too much. Can something really be objectively brilliant? If you're talking about the definition of brilliant that refers to its luster (like a brilliant diamond), how shiny is "shiny enough"?

If you're talking about quality, you have similar problems: Firstly, there's the fact that such an objective classification is normally a summation of subjective assessments. You yourself demonstrate a prime example of this. You classify books with a -- > ++ scheme (which I actually really like, much better than 1 to 5 stars for comparing work in my opinion), yet where you place a book on this scale is based on your own value judgements as to what constitutes quality.

Secondly, there's the subjectivety of choosing which of those subjective assessments are important. You like to see formulaic principles that can cover all possible cases, without exceptions, in a simple and clean manner. To you, with respect to an issue like liberty fights or the outcomes of ko situations, these are so valuable that they are pretty much a necessity - much better than vague generalisations like "one eye beats no eye". However, to other people, formulaic approaches are fundamentally bad, and make them not want to pick up the book. Not that formulaic approaches are incorrect (the accuracy of an approach has a much greater chance of being argued on objective merit I think), just they turn the person off from reading a book and not want to touch it again. With respect to the quality of the book, that certainly demonstrated that the book has a low value in their mind. On the contrary, some people love maxims such as "never push from behind", "never peep when you can cut", "one eye beats no eye", "atari? extend!" as these are the sorts of advice that people don't forget. For these people, even running the risk of applying them incorrectly is fine for the benefit of having something simple they can pick up, read, and learn (and teach!). For them, brilliance comes in utter simplicity.

Why is your definition an objectively better one than theirs is? If person A considers a book brilliant for reasons M, N and O, and person B considers it rubbish for reasons X, Y and Z, who can put themselves in the position to judge objectively which of the factors M, N, O, X, Y and Z are more important? How can this be anything other than subjective?

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:13 am
by hyperpape
RobertJasiek wrote:
I could even post for him, merely substituting "Robert Jasiek believes" for "I believe".


It is not a matter of belief but of evidence or missing evidence.
Saying you believe it implies neither that you lack evidence nor that you do not know it.

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:40 am
by RobertJasiek
topazg wrote:Can something really be objectively brilliant?


Yes, given an agreed upon definition and subject to its specifications.

yet where you place a book on this scale is based on your own value judgements as to what constitutes quality.


Yes, but I discuss and explain my ratings when necessary. This makes it possible to verify whether they are chose reasonably.

there's the subjectivety of choosing which of those [...] assessments are important.


Yes. Weighing criteria is a factor. I have explained my weighing style. When will others start to explain theirs?

You like to see formulaic principles that can cover all possible cases, without exceptions, in a simple and clean manner.


This is an over-generalisation of my view. I want to see (also) generally applicable advice. It is of secondary importance in which form that advice appears. Principles are one possibility, methods are another etc. Covering all cases is not always possible but if it is possible in even a simple, clean manner, then, yes, it must be stated and explained.

To you, with respect to an issue like liberty fights or the outcomes of ko situations, these are so valuable that they are pretty much a necessity - much better than vague generalisations like "one eye beats no eye".


Of course. "one eye beats no eye" (as a pretended general principle) is one of the greatest and worst falsehoods of go teaching in history. True statements must correct that.

However, to other people, formulaic approaches are fundamentally bad, and make them not want to pick up the book.


So they continue to make mistakes such as possibly always trusting "one eye beats no eye".

People who dislike formulaic approaches also dislike endgame calculations or positional judgements. Their playing suffers.

just they turn the person off from reading a book and not want to touch it again.


Sure. I do not write books for people rejecting to learn or wishing to learn half-truths (i.e. half-falsehoods) but I write for those willing to learn correct (or almost correct) knowledge.

With respect to the quality of the book, that certainly demonstrated that the book has a low value in their mind.


And this lets you suggest factual falsehoods as a measure of book quality? Do not listen to such people but listen to those advocating factual truths!

On the contrary, some people love maxims such as "never push from behind", "never peep when you can cut", "one eye beats no eye", "atari? extend!" as these are the sorts of advice that people don't forget. For these people, even running the risk of applying them incorrectly is fine for the benefit of having something simple they can pick up, read, and learn (and teach!). For them, brilliance comes in utter simplicity.


This is DDK learning level. DDKs do not need precise principles when almost correct principles are available and simple. However, I would never teach big falsehoods such as "one eye beats no eye". Do not suggest desinformation of beginners (or anybody else)!

Why is your definition an objectively better one than theirs is?


Because (relative frequency of) truth is better than falsehood!

If person A considers a book brilliant for reasons M, N and O, and person B considers it rubbish for reasons X, Y and Z, who can put themselves in the position to judge objectively which of the factors M, N, O, X, Y and Z are more important? How can this be anything other than subjective?


By relying on fundamental insights such as "truth is better than falsehood" or "knowledge is better than no knowledge".

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:49 am
by topazg
RobertJasiek wrote:
topazg wrote:Can something really be objectively brilliant?


Yes, given an agreed upon definition and subject to its specifications.


That's my point, you won't get a generally agreed upon definition.

The OP of the other thread may say, quite reasonably, that the book is brilliant due to the fact it reached his definitions and specifications of brilliance. Of course you can disagree, because you feel that your own definition of brilliant is a more appropriate one, but that's kind of the point - feeling that way is subjective.

RobertJasiek wrote:Because (relative frequency of) truth is better than falsehood!


With respect to the brilliance of a book, that's simply your subjective opinion :)

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:07 am
by Magicwand
I define briliant as weak player getti.g stronger by reading that material. Robert's book is not that book.

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:08 am
by crux
Can we stop the Turing test now?

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:15 am
by gowan
The original question was which of Western and Japanese go literature is more brilliant. For me that includes all go literature, not just instructional material. So there is no question that Japanese go literature, with all its commented game collections and studies of go history, is far more brilliant and, imo more useful.

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:23 am
by John Fairbairn
Robert Jasiek said
"one eye beats no eye" (as a pretended general principle) is one of the greatest and worst falsehoods of go teaching in history... I would never teach big falsehoods such as "one eye beats no eye". Do not suggest desinformation of beginners (or anybody else)!


A brilliant example of disinformation. Please show where Japanese pros have actually said in "go teaching in history" that one eye beats no eye.

The truth is: there is a phrase in Japanese: me ari me nashi which simply describes a situation where "there is an eye, and there is no eye".

There are, further, two Japanese proverbs derived from this:

1. me ari me nashi kara semeai - [the study of] capturing races starts with "one eye, no eye"

2. me ari me nashi mo toki ni yoru: "one eye, no eye" also depends on the occasion

In addition, a typical comment on the base case - picking up the first Japanese book to hand - is not "beat" but that the situation tends to be "extremely advantageous" for the side having an eye.

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:35 am
by RobertJasiek
Magicwand wrote:I define briliant as weak player getti.g stronger by reading that material. Robert's book is not that book.


For Capturing Races 1 and if you mean "significantly stronger", right. For First Fundamentals, there is a good chance that you consider it brilliant:)

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:39 am
by RobertJasiek
gowan wrote:The original question was which of Western and Japanese go literature is more brilliant. For me that includes all go literature, not just instructional material. So there is no question that Japanese go literature, with all its commented game collections and studies of go history, is far more brilliant and, imo more useful.


Part of the literature is much better in Asia (e.g., entirety of go problems), part of the literature is much better in the West (e.g., mathematical research). (Note: there are exceptions on both sides.)

Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:44 am
by RobertJasiek
John Fairbairn wrote:Please show where Japanese pros have actually said in "go teaching in history" that one eye beats no eye.


I cannot prove it because I did not record it. However, I have witnessed it several (or many?) times in pro teaching lectures at ECGs.

The truth is: there is a phrase in Japanese: me ari me nashi which simply describes a situation where "there is an eye, and there is no eye".


It was not this form that was presented, but it was explained as if "one eye beats none" were always true.

There are, further, two Japanese proverbs derived from this:

1. me ari me nashi kara semeai - [the study of] capturing races starts with "one eye, no eye"

2. me ari me nashi mo toki ni yoru: "one eye, no eye" also depends on the occasion


Great. Unfortunately, such better knowledge does not make it to EGCs, as far as I have witnessed in 100s of pro lectures.

A similar comment I can make for "to kill, first reduce eyespace, then play the vital point".