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Re: Memory Palace
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:25 pm
by aokun
quantumf wrote:snorri wrote:shapenaji wrote:It sounds like it's hard to get an advantage out of these memory tricks here, I wonder if it could be used backward to get an advantage? A go board (or a specific game) AS a memory palace?
I tried to respond, but my response got lost. Anyway, use a game with key moves in the game marked as loci (a ko, invasion, probe) and put iteams you want to rememeber there, or just your favorite opening. Imagine the players---people are sometimes easier to remember than objects---actually doing something interesting with the object you want to remember at that point in the game.
Nice ideas. Seems like one could get quite a large collection of (admittedly small) palaces by referring to popular openings (low chinese, high chinese, sanrensei, great wall, rotating komoku, kobayashi, mini chinese, etc)
This might be a good way of making palaces out of go memories for use memorizing _other_ things. The trouble with using them to remember go things is that they'd be easy to confuse. Don't forget that memory techniques make use of things the memory remembers easily, like places and vivid actions, to store things hard to remember, like words, digits, names and abstract elements. If the thing being remembered and the thing being used to remember resemble each other, there might not be much advantage and the similarity could act as camouflage.
Re: Memory Palace
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:59 pm
by shapenaji
aokun wrote:
This might be a good way of making palaces out of go memories for use memorizing _other_ things. The trouble with using them to remember go things is that they'd be easy to confuse. Don't forget that memory techniques make use of things the memory remembers easily, like places and vivid actions, to store things hard to remember, like words, digits, names and abstract elements. If the thing being remembered and the thing being used to remember resemble each other, there might not be much advantage and the similarity could act as camouflage.
Yeah, that's more or less what I was thinking, use the ability to store 300+ moves in memory to make yourself a better memory athelete
Re: Memory Palace
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:18 am
by Bill Spight
About memory and meaning:
Wasn't there a study long ago that found that chess masters and beginners did about as well when asked to remember a random chess position that they could see for only a few seconds, but that the masters did much better when presented with positions from actual games? Wouldn't the same hold true for go? IOW, meaning helps memory.
For instance:
(;FF[4]ST[2]SZ[19]AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]CA[ISO8859-1]GM[1]FG[259:]PB[ ]PW[ ]GN[ ]PM[2]
AB[pd]
AW[dd]
AB[pp]
AW[dp]
AB[fq]
AW[ip]
AB[fo]
AW[dn]
AB[dr]
AW[cq]
AB[ir]
AW[ck]
AB[pj]
AW[nc]
AB[pf]
AW[pb]
AB[md]
AW[mc]
AB[ld]
AW[nd]
AB[ne]
AW[lc]
AB[kd]
AW[ol]
AB[ql]
AW[no]
AB[nq]
AW[qm]
AB[qo]
AW[oj]
AB[pi]
AW[lp]
AB[on]
AW[mm]
AB[pl]
)
and
(;FF[4]ST[2]SZ[19]AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]CA[ISO8859-1]GM[1]FG[259:]PB[ ]PW[ ]GN[ ]PM[2]
AB[pd]
AW[dd]
AB[pp]
AW[dp]
AB[pj]
AW[nc]
AB[lc]
AW[nq]
AB[lq]
AW[no]
AB[pn]
AW[kp]
AB[lp]
AW[lo]
AB[kq]
AW[jp]
AB[jq]
AW[ip]
AB[hq]
AW[go]
AB[fq]
AW[ne]
AB[qf]
AW[kd]
AB[kc]
AW[jd]
AB[jc]
AW[id]
AB[hc]
AW[ge]
)
The second example is quite easy.
Here is another.
(;FF[4]ST[2]SZ[19]AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]CA[ISO8859-1]GM[1]FG[259:]PB[ ]PW[ ]GN[ ]PM[2]
AB[pd]
AW[dp]
AB[pp]
AW[cc]
AB[fq]
AW[dn]
AB[jp]
AW[pn]
AB[pl]
AW[np]
AB[oo]
AW[qq]
AB[pq]
AW[qp]
AB[on]
AW[rn]
AB[pm]
AW[nc]
AB[jd]
AW[ne]
AB[pf]
AW[pb]
AB[md]
AW[nd]
AB[qc]
AW[hc]
AB[fo]
AW[eq]
AB[fr]
AW[ng]
)
Re: Memory Palace
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:33 am
by snorri
Bill Spight wrote:About memory and meaning:
Wasn't there a study long ago that found that chess masters and beginners did about as well when asked to remember a random chess position that they could see for only a few seconds, but that the masters did much better when presented with positions from actual games?
Maybe you're thinking about
Chase, W.G. and Simon, H.A. Perception in Chess 1973, Cognitive Psychology 4, 55-81?
Re: Memory Palace
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:37 am
by xed_over
snorri wrote:Bill Spight wrote:About memory and meaning:
Wasn't there a study long ago that found that chess masters and beginners did about as well when asked to remember a random chess position that they could see for only a few seconds, but that the masters did much better when presented with positions from actual games?
Maybe you're thinking about
Chase, W.G. and Simon, H.A. Perception in Chess 1973, Cognitive Psychology 4, 55-81?
but there was also a youtube video about it featuring one of the Polgar sisters to demonstrate. I remember seeing it (but can't find it).
Re: Memory Palace
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:16 am
by Bill Spight
snorri wrote:Bill Spight wrote:About memory and meaning:
Wasn't there a study long ago that found that chess masters and beginners did about as well when asked to remember a random chess position that they could see for only a few seconds, but that the masters did much better when presented with positions from actual games?
Maybe you're thinking about
Chase, W.G. and Simon, H.A. Perception in Chess 1973, Cognitive Psychology 4, 55-81?
Thanks.
It was de Groot's research, which they mention.
Re: Memory Palace
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:59 am
by SmoothOper
quantumf wrote:I've recently been reading about Memory Palaces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci and after some experimentation I've been quite impressed by how well the work.
Recent discussions in the Tami's Way topic and the Intuition topic have prompted me to wonder whether there is any mileage to be gained by trying to apply this memory technique to Go.
If indeed one can store hundreds, or even thousands of facts, in a reliable and retrievable way, what should one attempt to store?
Just a checklist of things to remember? A pretty lengthy and detailed checklist could be kept.
A list of principles and techniques? Which ones?
Joseki sequences? An encoding method is not clear to me.
A 'shape' database? What does this even mean?
Has anyone tried this? If not, do you have any opinions or suggestions?
The Memory palace is pretty well known to work. It may have limited use in Go, since it is primarily for temporary memory, since one of the primary techniques in the memory palace, is to empty the palace, so that you use the palace to remember other things later. However, there is an often cited a connection between recalling temporary memories and long term memories and that improvement in one is likely to improve the other.