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Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:21 am
by xed_over
I missed this game. I didn't see the schedule posted.
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[-3.50]TM[1200]OT[3x30 byo-yomi]
GN[10 game kadoban]PW[Lee Sedol]PB[Catalin Taranu]WR[9p]BR[5p]DT[2013-03-10]RO[6]PC[go9dan.com]C[Catalin said he was thinking about 35 at 36 as an alternative, but Sedol commented that 35 was good.
" 25 should be at 41. 45 is too slow. Instead black should play at around 54 or 47 to grow b's moyo. Black 93 would have been thick at 94, instead of creating two weak groups. White's move 114 was strange. If b played 133 instead of 131, then it would have been better for black. But after black's 45 and w was able to reduce b's upper moyo at w46, the game is comfrotable for white."]RE[W+Time]
;B[qd];W[dp];B[cd];W[pp];B[jd];W[ed];B[ec];W[dd];B[dc];W[ce];B[fd];W[cc];B[bd];W[cb];B[be];W[cf]
;B[db];W[fc];B[fb];W[gc];B[fe];W[ef];B[bb];W[gb];B[bc];W[ea];B[eb];W[id];B[ie];W[jc];B[kc];W[ic]
;B[kd];W[he];B[ff];W[if];B[je];W[hg];B[eg];W[fa];B[ca];W[dh];B[ei];W[cj];B[de];W[od];B[kg];W[of]
;B[qf];W[oh];B[qh];W[qc];B[rc];W[jf];B[kf];W[le];B[md];W[me];B[ke];W[hj];B[lj];W[oj];B[jj];W[gi]
;B[eh];W[il];B[ii];W[gh];B[ol];W[pc];B[rb];W[mc];B[ll];W[mg];B[jg];W[ek];B[cq];W[cp];B[dq];W[eq]
;B[er];W[fq];B[fr];W[gq];B[bp];W[bo];B[bq];W[cn];B[nq];W[oq];B[np];W[pn];B[ql];W[nn];B[lo];W[nl]
;B[om];W[on];B[nk];W[qm];B[rl];W[ml];B[lm];W[mk];B[ok];W[mj];B[jm];W[qi];B[ri];W[lq];B[lp];W[kq]
;B[jp];W[mq];B[nr];W[jq];B[no];W[rj];B[qj];W[pi];B[sj];W[rh];B[rk];W[qg];B[rf];W[hn];B[ip];W[gr]
;B[qq];W[or];B[ro];W[mn];B[qo];W[op];B[ho];W[in];B[kp];W[jl];B[lk];W[mb];B[go];W[kb];B[gn];W[en]
;B[gl];W[hl];B[gk];W[ij];B[fj];W[ej];B[ch];W[ln];B[kn];W[jo];B[ko];W[fm];B[gm];W[fi];B[mi];W[nj]
;B[mf];W[nf];B[mh];W[di];B[gg];W[ih];B[jh];W[dg];B[fg];W[hf])
edit: sgf correction. and added player comments
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:58 am
by p2501
xed_over wrote:I missed this game. I didn't see the schedule posted.
I don't get
at all
*edited
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:40 am
by xed_over
p2501 wrote:I don't get
at all
eek...
that's because I made a mistake in my transcription. sorry about that.
I've corrected my earlier post.
and feel free to compare with the original for any other errors:
http://go9dan.com/Home/Gibo/1312
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:26 pm
by Uberdude
So next game 2 stones. Any bets if this is enough for the first win? My feeling is no. Against other 9ps maybe, but Lee is not any old 9p.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:55 pm
by topazg
I agree - My gut feeling from the games is they seem kinda rather like shidougo to me.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:26 am
by Uberdude
topazg wrote:shidougo
= teaching game, to save others looking it up on Sensei's
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:37 pm
by DeFlow
topazg wrote:I agree - My gut feeling from the games is they seem kinda rather like shidougo to me.
I'm really interested in what you mean by this. Do you mean that the difference in level is obvious? Or is there some way you can gather from the playing style that Lee Sedol is playing these games as teaching games? If so, how?
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:24 pm
by topazg
DeFlow wrote:topazg wrote:I agree - My gut feeling from the games is they seem kinda rather like shidougo to me.
I'm really interested in what you mean by this. Do you mean that the difference in level is obvious? Or is there some way you can gather from the playing style that Lee Sedol is playing these games as teaching games? If so, how?
Not only do the easiness of the games feel that way (I watch a lot of his pro title tournament games, and these games simply don't compare to things like his encounters with Gu Li with respect to playing on the edge, it's like he's just gently brushing off a semi-competitive opponent), but his comments at the end definitely feel like a tutor explaining to his student where his mistakes were, rather than a game discussion amongst equals. I don't mean that to sound critical of him, so much as it's just the impression he gives about how he feels about the strength difference.
He commented on how "good" the opening was of the American pro he played recently, and that it was "up to" the standards of Korean and Chinese pros (note, this is professionals in general, not title level 9 dans), so it's quite clear there's an underlying sentiment that "good start guys, but you've still got a long way to go - here are some helpful game review comments to speed you along the way".
Just my observations anyway
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:12 pm
by golem7
I love this series! I've often wondered what the strength difference between the top of the go world and the top of the "western" go world really is! Now it seems I'll finally get an answer! does anyone have any idea how Ilya Shikshin compares to the US pros? He seems like the top of Europe at the moment. Were there ever any match-ups? Maybe there should be something like a ryder go cup?
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:44 pm
by Uberdude
I think Andy is a bit stronger than Ilya (but not more than komi). With the disclaimer that people might not play their best online (but it's still a good indicator IMO) Andy is usually KGS 9d and occasionally drops to 8d, where Ilya is a solid 8d. I don't know so much about Gansheng, probably he and Ilya are about the same.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:45 pm
by deja
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:59 pm
by logan
It's often more difficult to play with a handicap than an even game, so I don't read too much into these results.
However, it would be foolish for anyone to think that there isn't a difference between Yi Sedol and the new American pros.
Also, any players of these strengths can find mistakes in their peers' games with only a little hindsight and thought... Even I can find mistakes in amateur 8/9 dan games and many professional games, but (for me) it doesn't mean I am stronger or that the players I am critiquing are weaker. More broadly than just this game series, it would be wise to exercise prudence in reading too much into a player's ability to critique others.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:46 am
by topazg
logan wrote:Also, any players of these strengths can find mistakes in their peers' games with only a little hindsight and thought... Even I can find mistakes in amateur 8/9 dan games and many professional games, but (for me) it doesn't mean I am stronger or that the players I am critiquing are weaker. More broadly than just this game series, it would be wise to exercise prudence in reading too much into a player's ability to critique others.
It wasn't the ability to critique I was commenting on, so much as the tone and approach of the critique.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:38 am
by Uberdude
topazg wrote:It wasn't the ability to critique I was commenting on, so much as the tone and approach of the critique.
I don't know how much one can read into the tone given Lee, afaik, doesn't speak English.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:10 am
by logan
topazg wrote:It wasn't the ability to critique I was commenting on, so much as the tone and approach of the critique.
I wasn't replying to your post, so no worries : )
