Life In 19x19

4 gate isn't all-in. The strength of a 4 gate is really its first 2-3 rounds of production. After that, you are under no obligation to cut probes and can easily transition. It may not be the most economically oriented of builds, but it is very flexible and you can transition fairly well to a long game.

CSamurai: I don't recommend going voidray against fast cannon + expand build. The reason is because it turns what is a gamble on his part to a gamble on your part. You are relying on him not having adequate macro to defend voidrays, which is a iffy proposition. IMO, when the opponent goes cannons its pretty much a free win for me unless I screw up, and going voidrays is an unnecessary risk.

Aphelion wrote:4 gate isn't all-in. The strength of a 4 gate is really its first 2-3 rounds of production. After that, you are under no obligation to cut probes and can easily transition. It may not be the most economically oriented of builds, but it is very flexible and you can transition fairly well to a long game.

I've played 4 gate only a handful of times and found this to be the case.

hirohiigo wrote:I've never had a problem keeping up with probe production during a 4 gate. I may not be a master at macro, but I've never had a problem like you described where I don't have enough probes to transfer. All you need is 1-2 sentries to keep your opponent contained in their base since you can just forcefield your ramp.

I don't know where you learned 4 gate from, but past bronze you're not supposed to use it as an early win.

Unless you're Korean 4 Gating.

Then you're not macroing optimally. Show me 1 top-level replay where Protoss is warping in units from all 4 gates and pumping probes constantly and not converging to broke status off 1 base, just 1.

And you clearly haven't seen top-level tournament play; the majority of 4-gate play seen in such events are early wins or early losses. This is also consistent with what I've experienced in my own games. I'm not very good, but I'm certainly past bronze (1250 diamond with a broken finger) and the majority of my games where I 4-gate are, in fact, early wins...guess I must be "doing it wrong".

Aphelion wrote:4 gate isn't all-in. The strength of a 4 gate is really its first 2-3 rounds of production. After that, you are under no obligation to cut probes and can easily transition. It may not be the most economically oriented of builds, but it is very flexible and you can transition fairly well to a long game.

But in those first 2-3 rounds of production, you cut probe production so naturally if the push with the units from those first 2-3 rounds don't do enough damage, you'll usually be behind economically. This is all that I'm trying to say; you can't pump units out of 4 gates and still keep up probe production off 1 base simultaneously.

Here's a chat I just had with Time, a top 100 NA Protoss player; I've bolded parts where I felt he shared my stance on this topic:

You: hey patrick, can i ask a quick question?
Time: ya
Time: what's up?
You: cool; there's a little debate I've been having with someone regarding 4-gate
You: im just wondering from someone that's actually good on how "all-in" it is
You: and its potency to transition out of to expanding
Time: well
Time: usually it's pretty all-in and hard to transition out of
Time: it might be possible to like
Time: throw down a nexus and still go 4 gate
Time: but usually that just ends up making your attack too weak and your econ isn't strong either
You: right...so if a 4-gate push fails
You: transitioning is possible but your behind in economy right?
Time: ya
Time: I mean
Time: you can do a lot of economic damage
Time: and then expand
Time: and be even or ahead
Time: but if you don't do any damage to their econ you're gonna be behind
You: i see...
You: cause one guy says
You: he can keep up probe production
You: and produce units out of 4 gates which i dont believe to be true
Time: I mean
You: off 1 base
Time: I'm pretty sure some math geeks have done the calculation on tl and you can't support 4 gates with constant production unless it's 3 zealot/1 sentry every round and even then you're like totally broke
You: i see...
Time: which matchup are you talking about?
You: just in general
Time: like
Time: 4 gate PvT is totally all-in
Time: you can't reasonably expect to transition out of it
You: why is it different in PvT?
Time: well against zerg I feel like it's easier to do damage
Time: because if you force them to cut drones for a long time while they produce units to fend it off
Time: then you can have a stronger econ than them
Time: but against terran they can still make scvs while making other stuff
You: interesting
Time: also, if they were going for fast banshees
You: so in PvT, you'd consider it all-in, but in PvZ/PvP you wouldnt?
Time: and you don't kil them
Time: you can't have detection
Time: I don't understand PvP
You: hehe
Time: I have like
Time: 3 different all-in builds
Time: and sometimes I expand if I feel like it's a good idea
Time: but mostly it's just 1 base every game
You: interesting...
Time: if you want to go 4 gate
Time: and expand
Time: you can go like
Time: 1 gate
Time: nexus around 28 or something
Time: then add 3 more gateways
Time: it's pretty good in PvT and PvZ
You: yeah, i've been using this build that i saw HuK use a lot where i 1 gate FE to 5 gate
Time: and some people have claimed to get it to work in PvP
Time: ya he did it like every game at MLG
You: haha, yeah exactly
You: alright, well thanks for the tips
You: and nice carrier icon
Time: np
Time: thx

Day[9] did a whole daily (#169) on the 4 gate, showing some different 4 gate builds. He had one that was an "economy" 4 gate, but it wasn't what most people think of when they think 4 gate; it was basically late gas and using 4 gates for production while expanding, not the constant early pressure 4 gate is known for.

I feel naked without observers and I suck at rushing, so I never 4 gate myself.

Building a 4th gate doesn't commit you to continual production out of all 4 gates. All you have to do is to gain enough advantage to compensate for that 4th gate. In that sense I don't think its all in. I don't like to define your gameplan so rigidly by your initial build. A 4th gate is merely a few cut probes and and 150 minerals. Unless you're telling me there's no way to recoup that cost short of winning the game, I can't be convinced that its an all-in build.

And as Fwiffo mentions to me, Day9 agrees to me too .

Aphelion wrote:CSamurai: I don't recommend going voidray against fast cannon + expand build. The reason is because it turns what is a gamble on his part to a gamble on your part. You are relying on him not having adequate macro to defend voidrays, which is a iffy proposition. IMO, when the opponent goes cannons its pretty much a free win for me unless I screw up, and going voidrays is an unnecessary risk.

Actually, the void rays are pretty much just there to destroy pylons.
I pump out a crapload of zealots and a bit of stalkers, and 2-5 void rays. The main group charges, taking fire, while the void rays eliminate the cannon's power pylons by circling around.

Of course, I'm playing in bronze, and people who build cannon builds usually turtle up, push out an expansion, and then just build cannon fields, with a few zealots.

My midgame sucks. If I can't close a game out early, I really really need to figure out what to do, because right now, 90% of my games that go past 20 minutes are losses.

Maybe that's because I'm focusing so much on my early push, and not paying enough attention to expansion. About when do you expand as protoss? What's a good build to study when trying to develop at a more reasonable pace than 4 gate?

I'll post some of my more epic losses when I get home from work in the morning.

Sometimes I feel like terrans play more like zergs than zerg do. (You know what I mean, 3 rack mass marines.)

Aphelion wrote:Building a 4th gate doesn't commit you to continual production out of all 4 gates. All you have to do is to gain enough advantage to compensate for that 4th gate. In that sense I don't think its all in. I don't like to define your gameplan so rigidly by your initial build. A 4th gate is merely a few cut probes and and 150 minerals. Unless you're telling me there's no way to recoup that cost short of winning the game, I can't be convinced that its an all-in build.

And as Fwiffo mentions to me, Day9 agrees to me too .

If you're not committing to continual production out of all 4 gates, then sure it's not an all-in build. However, the build can then be considered excessive as your 4th gate is gathering dust after one or two warp ins. I think the fundamental difference between our perception of the 4-gate is your second sentence. At least in my eyes, the initial build does in fact define the gameplay. Why else would a build like a gateway + stargate + robo off one base be criticized so harshly by top level players? Because it reveals an indecisive gameplan with regards to the tech tree the player is trying to follow. And why is a 3-gate expand an opening commonly discussed and used, but a 4-gate expand something you hardly hear about? Because one is optimal and the other isn't. Unlike Go and more like Chess, I think the opening/build means everything, and if we don't share this sentiment then we'd really have to agree to disagree.

I can add a 4th gate because it gives more pressure and gives me the option of going all in. Its different from a 3 gate expand in that my opponent has to account for the later possibility, and has to choose a more defensive build.

Also, the analogy between a 4th gate and 1 gate 1 star 1 robo off 1 base is not right. The 4th gate is being used, primarily for its biggest advantage in the first 2 production rounds. It also gives you more flexibility later to warp in quickly for defense. Not to mention, you will definitely need the 4th gate when your 2nd base comes up (pretty soon).

Being decisive doesn't mean you have to over-commit. If you go 2 gate against zerg, does it mean you have to maintain full blown zealot production until the zerg dies? I don't think so. You build the first 4-5 zealots, but after that you assess the game situation and react accordingly. Its not a binary where the rush either fails or succeeds. You force some lings, get great scouting, and then cut zealot production and resume on the tech path. Similarly, when I go 4 gate, all I am commiting too is that timing window where I have a huge army after warping in my first 2 sets of units. That 4th gate is idle for a lot less time than the 2 gateways in a zealot rush.

I will readily concede that the 4 gate needs to do damage, or fall behind. It certainly doesn't not transition as comfortably as a 2 gate robo or 3 gate expand. But using that to call a build all in is fairly arbitrary. All builds need to do damage at a specified time frame. Some need so more than others, but as long as the game situation is not a binary win / autoloss I don't consider it all in.

Fair enough; I'll just call it "aggressive" then . However, I think too many people tend to over-commit with the 4-gate (so rather than the build being all-in, they all-in with the build), and I notice that in both my games and in pro games, most games involving 4-gating do tend to end pretty quickly depending on whether the first or second push fails or succeeds.

Nonetheless, it does feel that 4-gating is starting to fall out of trend and I've been seeing it a lot less the past week or so. Anyone else watching the GSL and noticing a trend going on with DT builds in PvT? It's something I'm gonna try to work on, though it's hard to build the discipline to not try and end it all with the DTs instead of just trying to gain an advantage from the harassment.

Lost a fun game before work today, involving DT's in a PvT scenario.

I was well behind before I started pushing out DT's and at one point, they rolled over with a MMM group, and 2 tanks. My 2 collosi and chargelots dealt massive damage, and I had just built my DTs, so I threw them in too. It ended up that I had 2 DTs and an immortal live, and everything else died in the skirmish. Trying to capitalize, I threw the remaining DTs down the map, warped in a couple more. Unfortunately, they were far ahead of me. I had expanded early, and as always when I expand, the enemy had gone 3 rack MMM. Great stuff, that. My expansion, and half my base died. For some time, the only thing I could warp in were zealots, dts, and immortals. They had also managed to decimate my probe population, and I ended up /far/ behind in resource collection.

The DTs did a great job of prolonging the inevitable though, and I think if I find terrans going MMM again, I'll try for a 3 gate DT/S build.

I know what I did in that game wrong. After my initial pushes, which were fairly successful, I kinda lost track of building stuff, and ended up well behind on unit and tech production. Shot myself in the foot, as it were.

There were a couple times I thought that if I could just get the units over there, I could have closed him out, but I just didn't manage it.

But I'm pretty wildly out of it today. I probably shouldn't have even been playing.

Just in case anyone doesn't know, Reddit organized a donation tsunami on Day[9] to commemorate his 200th Daily, and people are donating right now:

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comme ... ck_update/

Well this sucks...my finger was basically a giant scab just waiting to be peeled off for the past week or so, and lately I've even managed to play a few 1v1s with it after the scab hardened up...felt weird and stung a bit, but way better than 8 finger play. Today I couldn't resist and managed to take off most of my scab, thinking it'd be victory and that I could at long last type comfortably with it. This was until I realized that the skin under a scab, if peeled too soon as it seems to be what I've done, can be super sensitive and needs time for another layer of skin to grow...so now it's even worse than when I had the scab in the first place since anything that touches the surface of my finger burns like fire. Fantastic . Should have listened to my dad (a doctor) and not pick on the scab instead of the hand surgeon who said picking on it would be alright (as long as I gave it "enough" time).

Oh well, GSL ro32 in a few hours!!

Araban wrote:Well this sucks...my finger was basically a giant scab just waiting to be peeled off for the past week or so, and lately I've even managed to play a few 1v1s with it after the scab hardened up...felt weird and stung a bit, but way better than 8 finger play. Today I couldn't resist and managed to take off most of my scab, thinking it'd be victory and that I could at long last type comfortably with it. This was until I realized that the skin under a scab, if peeled too soon as it seems to be what I've done, can be super sensitive and needs time for another layer of skin to grow...so now it's even worse than when I had the scab in the first place since anything that touches the surface of my finger burns like fire. Fantastic . Should have listened to my dad (a doctor) and not pick on the scab instead of the hand surgeon who said picking on it would be alright (as long as I gave it "enough" time).

Oh well, GSL ro32 in a few hours!!

Wow, I'm glad I don't have a giant saw wound. I am the worst scab picker in the history of all scab pickers. I pick stuff that isn't even scabs, like dry lips. Good luck to you, sir, and Godspeed.

p.s. I can't wait to start trying to get into the Master League.

Did a whole bunch of Funday Monday games last night with a couple different teams. This one was the most Epic - both teams were doing Funday Monday:

Ink Saya Protein Keith vs Heff Gryzzly Steven Fwiffo