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#240 awef vs jeromie

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=10624

Page 5 of 8

Re:

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:14 am
by skydyr
EdLee wrote:
jeromie wrote:C13 is really, really big, but it leaves me over concentrated
Hmm, I think C13 is bigger.

Both players seem to have some misunderstanding of what over-concentrated means.
In their defense, the distinction between strong or thick and overconcentrated is somewhat subtle. I know I still mis-evaluate positions in this regards. Beginning players are also often told not to allow a double approach to the 4-4 stone, so it doesn't surprise me that white is playing here. I do agree, however, that C13 is bigger, as it weakens the black side group as well, relieving pressure on the corner.

That said, in order for it to relieve the pressure, you have to be able to if not read at least have a feel for the aji available to white if black chooses to double approach.

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:05 am
by Uberdude
I think :w20: is ok, if c13 black 2nd line hane connect in sente then double approach looks playable. The lower side is kind of flat and boring with 11 and p6 making it easier to flatten, but the corner is big. And if black now c13 then white c16 and if black connects white can play the big point on the top side (and if black doesn't connect it didn't gain much and in fact white got to strengthen his corner).

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:06 pm
by awef
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
EdLee, I'm not sure why I decided it wasn't a move to labor on. Maybe it's because I felt the time/productive idea ratio increased steeply.

I chose the move I played this time because the top is the biggest area. I feel a little silly playing it, such a meek mild-mannered two space extension, especially considering I was once eyeing a 6-space extension, but white is thick to the left and I don't want to invite invasion, especially since he also has an influential group on the right. I suspect white will play on either the bottom or the top now and I plan to play on the other side after that. Moves I want to get to play: (1) Extend on either the top or the bottom, (2) slide into bottom left corner, (3) save top left stone and (4) extend on the right side. Perhaps not in that order, probably (3) before (2), and I'm sure I won't get to play all of them.

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:50 pm
by jeromie
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black's last move seems like the wrong extension to make use of his corner enclosure. That leaves me with several big points to decide between:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . a . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b O . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O e . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . c . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
It's hard to tell which of these is biggest. a is a nice extension from my wall, but I don't think it's necessary yet. My wall has enough influence to make it hard for black to make much territory I. That area even if he moves again. d takes away a big point from black (an extension in the right direction) but doesn't work too well with my own stones for making territory. b gets the whole upper left corner if I've read things out correctly. c encloses a big lower left corner. e has been explained earlier.

I played b for a few reasons: I have good influence in the upper left but I'm short on solid territory. If he lets me play c as well, his group on the left becomes vulnerable to a later attack. I won't be able to kill it, but I can probably make profit. I think I can get enough stones into the center to keep black from making much territory there, but I need to have some solid territory of my own to make that a viable strategy.

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:04 am
by awef
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I figure something like:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 . X4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White gets a big corner but I think I get sente to take a big point next.

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:27 pm
by jeromie
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Here is where things get interesting. Clearly, we've both read this situation differently. I think I can kill black no matter what he does from here, though there are several moves that represent potential pitfalls. The variations are complex enough that I can't show them all, but here's how I will respond to black's most likely follow up moves:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19
$$ +------------
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . .
$$ | . . . , O .
$$ | . 2 X O . .
$$ | . 1 3 . . .
$$ | . X O O . .
$$ | . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19
$$ +------------
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . .
$$ | . . . , O .
$$ | . 3 X O . .
$$ | . 1 2 . . .
$$ | . X O O . .
$$ | . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]
(Notably, I don't think B12 works here.)

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:30 pm
by Uberdude
Strange thoughts from white. More sensible, and I would expect a 15k to get this right:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19
$$ +------------
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . .
$$ | . . . , O .
$$ | . 2 X O . .
$$ | . 1 . . . .
$$ | . X O O . .
$$ | . 3 X . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19
$$ +------------
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . .
$$ | . . . , O .
$$ | . . X O . .
$$ | . 1 2 . . .
$$ | . X O O . .
$$ | . 3 X . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]
So of course black should connect (or hanging connection is another possibility, gives white atari but in some situations a stone at a is more useful that white's atari, here it does allow this double hane but loses some endgame).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19
$$ +------------
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . .
$$ | . . . , O .
$$ | . . X O . .
$$ | . 1 . . . .
$$ | . X O O . .
$$ | . 2 X . . .
$$ | . a . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm25 Hanging connection pros and cons
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 9 . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:12 pm
by jeromie
I just realized there is a decently good chance that awef is not going to try to live: if black connects at C12 I owe another move to kill so he'll simultneously solidify his left side territory and get to play another big move. Assuming I read correctly and get the corner, I've probably spent too many moves on it. I need to learn to read sequences for sente as much as for life.

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:32 pm
by awef
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I guess it doesn't make sense for white to have played
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
since that only strengthens me. So I don't get to end in sente, I'm scared of this
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:24 pm
by jeromie
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Yep; gote for me! This move leaves fewer ko threats than blocking at A14 or B15 (or the hane at A13).

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:24 pm
by EdLee
( For beginners. )

Both :b25: and :w26: are common mistakes at these levels.

Instead of :b25: the tiger's mouth --
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$m21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
-- B should simply connect solidly:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:30 pm
by EdLee
( For beginners. )

Instead of :w26: connecting directly --
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$m21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
-- W should first atari, before the connect:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:26 pm
by awef
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 7 . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I was expecting
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The bottom is the biggest area, that's the main motivation behind my move. It'll give me an extra stone in the area, too, if white ever tries sealing in my bottom right corner.

Edit: Probably should have thought about my move a little bit harder, I think I could've exchanged 27 for 28 here before playing in the bottom.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:34 pm
by jeromie
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 8 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 7 . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I didn't think about this one too much. This was one of the big moves I determined were left, and I think it's urgent now that black played an approach to the corner. I can't see a way for black to invade and live in the corner after this move, so this is some more territory in the bank. (Though I think I'm still behind in likely territory, about 55 points to 40. I'm not going to panic until the fuseki stage is done, though.).

I expect black to play again on the bottom (otherwise move 27 seems too vulnerable to attack), though awef might take one of the other big points on the board. I think R13 on the right side is the biggest move left, but if he doesn't make another move on the bottom I can probably make good profit by attacking the H3 stone that was just played.

I'd also like a stone on the top to build territory against my wall, but if I'm not careful a play there will help black turn the entire upper right quadrant of the board into territory. The one thing I have going for me at the moment is that almost all of black's stones are on the third line; any moves that help him build a wall extending into the center would probably be a mistake.

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:51 pm
by awef
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 9 . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 8 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 7 . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Thought about playing here
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 9 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 8 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 7 . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
but I don't think white has to respond. I played where I did because top is widest spot on the board. I strengthened my upper right corner so I think I can handle a fight if white plays something like
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm29 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . 2 . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . 3 4 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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