Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

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drmwc
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by drmwc »

Pippen wrote:Since it came from drm..., a 4d, well' continue like this, Black to play now:


Why drm... rather than drmwc? MWC are my initials, and Dr is my title. I guess you may be making a toilet reference. However, I am very English and the correct words for toilet are toilet and loo only.
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quantumf
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by quantumf »

drmwc wrote:
Pippen wrote:Since it came from drm..., a 4d, well' continue like this, Black to play now:


Why drm... rather than drmwc? MWC are my initials, and Dr is my title. I guess you may be making a toilet reference. However, I am very English and the correct words for toilet are toilet and loo only.


Well, I can't speak for Pippen, but I too think of your name being drm-wc. Not because of water closets, but because drm (digital rights management) is a significant concept in today's Internet world. More so than doctor. So for someone wanting to contract your name (a dubious but common desire), drm seemed more than natural then dr - until now, of course, after your explanation.
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by Violence »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This game reminds me of the Fox Puff matchup.

It's in Fox's favor(similar to how this game is clearly good for black right now)

Puff's general goal is to use horizontal aerial mobility to trick Fox into overextending to hit a very large punish. Fox's goal is to stay safe and solid without overextending and prey on Puff's exposed weaknesses one at a time.

Similarly, I feel like black wants to just take care of his weaknesses while taking solid territory and allow white's weaknesses to pile up. As long as we don't give white anything to sink his teeth into, he's just going to keep floating around doing nothing.
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by Bill Spight »

Mr. Sandman, send me a drm.
Make her complexion like pchs and crm.


:)
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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by Bill Spight »

Score estimators are problematic, which is why computer go programs have almost universally abandoned them. The main problem, I think, is that they do not take the strength or weakness of groups into account very well.

The current position, however, lends itself well to tewari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go][go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X W X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X W W X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The four :wc: stones are goners. We can assess the efficiency of play by pairing them with four Black stones. Tewari is a bit of an art, but how about this pairing?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X W B B . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X W W B X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


It is hard not to think that Black has played more efficiently than White in this area.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by Pippen »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . W . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This is the opportunity for white to attack while using the nearby light stones to help.
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shapenaji
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by shapenaji »

So, this was all so that white could attack our 1 3rd line stone? Even if we tenuki, if he shuts us in, we still have good action in the corner. I'd be tempted to just ignore and proceed to smash face by chasing his right side group into the middle
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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skydyr
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by skydyr »

shapenaji wrote:
So, this was all so that white could attack our 1 3rd line stone? Even if we tenuki, if he shuts us in, we still have good action in the corner. I'd be tempted to just ignore and proceed to smash face by chasing his right side group into the middle

Isn't F3 one of those whaddayacall'em stones? Light? Is that the word? ;-)

More seriously, I think white may still consider the right side stones either light or strong enough right now. That said, if we attach on top of white's most recent move, or play another normal response, what's white's killer sequence?
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by Violence »

I do think we need to respond locally, because taking the corner makes white really thick. I'm still like, unsure of what exactly white is accomplishing right now, though. If we attach on top, don't we become solid?
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emerus
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by emerus »

Pippen wrote:*snip snip*
Tygem's SE, that I consider a better estimator, says White leads with 6.5.


Sorry for being obtuse but I'm not sure if this is a joke or not. :-|

More constructively, there seems to be some doubt about what white's strategy is. Playing light for the sake of playing light? Attacking for the sake of attacking? Pippen, could you provide us with your judgement of the board?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . B . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black has 30 points of solid territory and potential on the bottom.
White will perhaps have 10(+komi) points of territory in the lower left quadrant and potential along the top.

Black is 6.2x thicker than white. 8-)

I'm not sure how to quantify my positional judgement but I guess white is 25 points behind already. (lost about 2h stone)
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emerus
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by emerus »

Araban wrote:
Personally, I think W's last move was an overplay. The only two possibilities in my head for B were 'a' and 'b', both of which handle the potential weak point at 'c' (although 'a' is more robust; just felt too slow imo):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This kosumi surprised me. After considering it and seeing the reactions, it seems like a very strong and obvious(??) move.

In a game, I would certainly play as above but it would thicken white and take the bait of the stone on the right. Is it a big mistake?
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by Pippen »

.
Last edited by Pippen on Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by Pippen »

emerus wrote:More constructively, there seems to be some doubt about what white's strategy is. Playing light for the sake of playing light? Attacking for the sake of attacking? Pippen, could you provide us with your judgement of the board?


White is just playing a wait-and-see-strategy, so far.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X W X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


p.s.: As for the drm...-stuff, I was just too lazy to write out the whole nick, so I just took the first letters to make sure to whom I refer. No sweat.
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by shapenaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O a . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I don't see any reason to play "a", it makes the marked stone work again, I'm perfectly happy with the following sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 1 3 O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 4 X W X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 6 O 2 . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The corner is still open and we have thickness and sente
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Pippen
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Post by Pippen »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O W . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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