unkx80 wrote:Even if the whole position is one lower such that the 4-4 stone is at 3-4, I am still going to say the same thing. This is how much value I attach to the corner stone.
If you disagree with me you are almost definitely right
However, I still don't like giving White thickness facing that center if I can avoid it. If the stone was 3-4, I wouldn't contact underneath in the first place I guess...
Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:54 am
by Chew Terr
Speaking of that, even though white's stone is high (which I'm not used to, of course) I considered playing a knight's- or one-space- jump the other way, to be 'normal'. Would that have been a bad response? I was hoping to get a bit more access to the center. I decided not to, because then white would be able to attach under the 4-4 and get even more of the side. Did I make the right decision?
This is normal, but with your 4-4 and the fact White doesn't have to make an extra reinforcing move on the left, I definitely prefer what you did...
Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:00 am
by Chew Terr
topazg wrote:This is normal, but with a 4-4 I think I actually prefer what you did...
Thanks, that's kind of what I had expected, which is why I avoided it. My corner in the game is definitely larger, at least. Not certain if I would have remembered/been able to figure out 5. It's a type of move that always makes sense to me when I see it, but I rarely think of it myself.
Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:25 am
by Shaddy
I think this reduction is too deep, so I'll take a while to read and see if I can murder it. Next move coming this evening
Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:31 am
by Shaddy
$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Changed my mind, I don't need to kill it, I can just take my points for now. I can always attack later. It's hard right now, because of the weakness between my H7 and tengen stones.
Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:05 pm
by Chew Terr
$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . B X X . | $$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . B X X . | $$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
While I really want a big move at the top, or to support my reduction stone, I like the timing for this move here. Threatens to take quite a lot of points, threatens the stability of those stones. Of course, those stones are enough in the center that they won't be cut off and killed unless Shaddy decides (more than once) to let me, removing stability gives me threats and forcing moves for later.
Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:52 pm
by Shaddy
$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O B O . . | $$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This followup seems small, but the purpose (unstabilizing the group a bit) has been achieved. This gives me lots of options for later, like N6, Q8, or a more normal ladder breaker for a forcing move towards the middle. If Shaddy ends up fixing up his group again, I will get these handful of points in sente, which would be fine.
Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:06 pm
by Shaddy
$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O O . O . . . W . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O O . O . . 1 W . 6 8 . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . X O O X , 2 5 4 . O X X X . | $$ | . . X . . . O X X X 3 7 X . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My opponent burned his forcing moves to build up one side of this region in gote. This separates off his eastern star point. Additionally, it is fairly sente but a little hard to handle. Notably, the white tetris block below is down to three liberties. What I'm expecting is for my opponent to defend that region, while I weaken his star point further. As his stone is fourth-line, I don't expect to eat it or anything, but I reduce his potential in this area, get higher, and may even be able to extend south from my northeast star in semi-sente later, depending on how weak his star stone gets. Wishful thinking, I know.
Long story short: I think I get to make moves like this because my groups are stable. That is one huge benefit of taking the corners and sides first, is I was able to make my groups more stable. Anything I put in the middle would be risky, but coming up from the sides is rock-solid.
Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:02 pm
by topazg
Erm, isn't that Black group at the bottom down to one eye?
Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:21 pm
by Chew Terr
topazg wrote:Erm, isn't that Black group at the bottom down to one eye?
I'm not sure? I had assumed I had enough room to live, but I may have been mistaken...
Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:12 pm
by Shaddy
There is much reading to be done. I'm reasonably sure something is about to die.
Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:57 am
by Shaddy
$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O O . O . . X O . O O . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . X O O X , O X O . O X X X . | $$ | . . X . . . O X X X X X X . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
