Life In 19x19

People's dragons are getting chopped up left and right over here. If this keeps happening, there isn't likely to be a clear winner. I think John and Kirby should settle this on the Go board.

Robert has a very nice and IMO powerful mnemonic for all this, and he phrased it succinctly with just one verb.

Edited in response to Ed's edit:

John Fairbairn wrote:

...I see no problem in saying that tenuki to play sente during the endgame is good "fighting spirit".

But from long experience (much longer than yours) I do see a problem.

Why is it a problem? Keeping in mind the option to tenuki to play sente during endgame is a good thing, and I don't think that Knotwilg misunderstood the concept.

I know you like to educate us on Japanese words, but correction should happen if they've said something that's incorrect.

What did Knotwilg say that was incorrect? Do you think he misunderstands what "fighting spirit" is?

I'm not trying to troll. I just don't agree with "correcting" people when there is no misunderstanding.

Koosh wrote:I think John and Kirby should settle this on the Go board.

Sure.

Hi guys,

Over the years I've come to deliberately avoid Japanese terms because we always got into quarrels (on Sensei's Library) about what they meant. English terms have the advantage that we all know what they mean. It may be that fighting spirit has been used to translate kiai, but doesn't entirely capture the meaning or its essence. We had lengthy and in my opinion fruitless discussions about "thickness" until John I believe once settled it with explaining atsumi, atsusa and atsui. Still I needed to make mental images that were captured by terms like global thickness, local thickness and thick plays.

Anyhow ... before this ramifies again in all sorts of Japanese terms and their presumed translations, I said "fighting spirit" and what I meant by it was what most of us will understand by it, which may or may not equate to "kiai", I have no way of feeling whether it does because I don't speak the language. I know that, if you do, you can feel (sense?) things like that. For example, I speak Portuguese and the infamous "saudade", although it translates to my native "weemoed", hasn't entirely the same meaning. How to know "saudade"? By immersing in Portuguese culture. For my fellow countrymen who don't, "weemoed" will have to do.

Anyhow ... I said.

Fighting spirit embodies:
- not accepting defeat and finding ways to come back
- not expecting easy victory and keep putting pressure on the opponent
- critically assessing the opponent's play, in particular whether it should be answered (see how I avoid "sente")
- sometimes even deliberately ignoring his play in order to get the (mental) upper hand (see how I avoid "tenuki")
- not backing off in a fight because you don't know what will happen if you continue while backing off shows a clear loss
- overall the willingness to confront the opponent head on and not just desire either a cruising victory or a shameful loss

In the example game, there are a number of plays which I consider to display fighting spirit, at my level. Surely at a higher level some of those will be considered reckless or foolish, not fighting spirit.

In the mentioned sequence neither player was following the other one's sente (hard to aovid ) but tried to squeeze out the maximum profit before answering. When analyzing it, I found we both did correctly so. It was good fighting spirit, I believe.

Knotwilg wrote:When analyzing it, I found we both did correctly so. It was good fighting spirit, I believe.

Agree!

Knotwilg wrote: Over the years I've come to deliberately avoid Japanese terms because we always got into quarrels (on Sensei's Library) about what they meant. English terms have the advantage that we all know what they mean.

English terms have the advantage that we all think that we know what they mean.

There. Fixed that for ya.

Bill Spight wrote:

Knotwilg wrote: Over the years I've come to deliberately avoid Japanese terms because we always got into quarrels (on Sensei's Library) about what they meant. English terms have the advantage that we all know what they mean.

English terms have the advantage that we all think that we know what they mean.

There. Fixed that for ya.

Well, at least those who have it as their second language are not as handicapped with respect to the native speakers as those who have not a single notion of Japanese vs those who lived there or studied the language.

I know, Bill, that the English language has suffered a lot from its abuse by the rest of us. It's not a pretty sight to the native eye I'm sure. But I'm also quite confident that the cultural differences are not big enough for your "influence" to hide a different mental picture than my "invloed" or your "fighting spirit" to be different than my ... "fighting spirit" because that's what we tend to use nowadays. Of course, I'm not entirely sure you see the same yellow as I do, but let me end this right here.

Knotwilg wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Knotwilg wrote: Over the years I've come to deliberately avoid Japanese terms because we always got into quarrels (on Sensei's Library) about what they meant. English terms have the advantage that we all know what they mean.

English terms have the advantage that we all think that we know what they mean.

There. Fixed that for ya.

Well, at least those who have it as their second language are not as handicapped with respect to the native speakers as those who have not a single notion of Japanese vs those who lived there or studied the language.

I know, Bill, that the English language has suffered a lot from its abuse by the rest of us. It's not a pretty sight to the native eye I'm sure.

Not what I had in mind. More just the inherent ambiguities of language, even among native speakers As for go terminology, I am sure that we will eventually evolve one in English, even as the Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese have done. But, just as we have adopted finesse in bridge from French and Zugzwang in chess from German, I expect that we will adopt terms in go from Korean, Japanese, and Chinese. And that these terms may not mean the same as they do for native speakers.

Hi Koosh,

Bill Spight wrote:

Knotwilg wrote: Over the years I've come to deliberately avoid Japanese terms because we always got into quarrels (on Sensei's Library) about what they meant. English terms have the advantage that we all know what they mean.

English terms have the advantage that we all think that we know what they mean.

There. Fixed that for ya.

This may generally be true, but in this case, Knotwilg explained what he meant when he used the term "fighting spirit." If we are interested in a concept and how it relates to go as opposed to jumping into the rabbit hole of what words really and truly mean, then it might be better to focus on that.

The 5k wondering why he can't reach 1d notices when he reads John's explanation of kiai and Knotwilg's explanation of "fighting spirit," that a deficit in his play has become clearer, and for present purposes, that's what matters.

Is it better for someone to not understand a word at all, or to grasp part of its meaning? I for one realize that when I watch stronger players, that they often make an effort to save stones that I simply would have abandoned. I know you (Bill) like sacrificing, (and this post is not directed against you, but rather against drowning an issue in quibbling), but I'm realizing that my sacrifices are often unnecessary, so it's probably adequate to point out wimpy play.

EdLee wrote:Hi Koosh,

Nope.

You have succeeded in getting us to think about it, but now I just feel teased... (I remember something like LAKE but I don't recall what it means, or if that's what you are referring to...)

Knotwilg wrote:Fighting spirit embodies:
- not accepting defeat and finding ways to come back
- not expecting easy victory and keep putting pressure on the opponent
- critically assessing the opponent's play, in particular whether it should be answered (see how I avoid "sente")
- sometimes even deliberately ignoring his play in order to get the (mental) upper hand (see how I avoid "tenuki")
- not backing off in a fight because you don't know what will happen if you continue while backing off shows a clear loss
- overall the willingness to confront the opponent head on and not just desire either a cruising victory or a shameful loss

Hi Knotwilg,
Do you think that all these are related to positional judgement ? Positional judgement has had been my problem once, when I was stuck around 10 kyu kgs. A french book dedicated to it and to the global strategy that follows (reduce or invade if you are late, defend if you are ahead etc.) allowed me to break the barrier and rise to 7 kyu.

I see that there is nearly no books about it in english. I've got Robert Jasiek's first book about it, but it is mostly about the right way of counting, rather than about global strategy. And the only review I read of Lee Chang-Ho's book didn't seem very excited about it.

Today, I've been stuck at 6 kyu KGS for 6 months in spite of a lot of work and study. I feel that I have improved a lot in many aspects of the game, but my win/loss rate doesn't change. I am currently wondering if positional judgement is not, again, the lock that prevents everything I'm learning from being useful.

Pio2001 wrote:

Knotwilg wrote:Fighting spirit embodies:
- not accepting defeat and finding ways to come back
- not expecting easy victory and keep putting pressure on the opponent
- critically assessing the opponent's play, in particular whether it should be answered (see how I avoid "sente")
- sometimes even deliberately ignoring his play in order to get the (mental) upper hand (see how I avoid "tenuki")
- not backing off in a fight because you don't know what will happen if you continue while backing off shows a clear loss
- overall the willingness to confront the opponent head on and not just desire either a cruising victory or a shameful loss

Hi Knotwilg,
Do you think that all these are related to positional judgement ? Positional judgement has had been my problem once, when I was stuck around 10 kyu kgs. A french book dedicated to it and to the global strategy that follows (reduce or invade if you are late, defend if you are ahead etc.) allowed me to break the barrier and rise to 7 kyu.

I see that there is nearly no books about it in english. I've got Robert Jasiek's first book about it, but it is mostly about the right way of counting, rather than about global strategy. And the only review I read of Lee Chang-Ho's book didn't seem very excited about it.

Today, I've been stuck at 6 kyu KGS for 6 months in spite of a lot of work and study. I feel that I have improved a lot in many aspects of the game, but my win/loss rate doesn't change. I am currently wondering if positional judgement is not, again, the lock that prevents everything I'm learning from being useful.

I would say that "fighting spirit" is mostly about a state of mind. I believe that for many of us, to play up to our level of understanding, we need to be in the right state of mind when playing. This goes both ways: start a game when we have that state of mind and when we play, try to get into that state of mind. We also need to develop the technique of time management and the discipline to use our time and the opponent's time. Thirdly, we must learn how to avoid blunders and keep up the concentration, especially in the later stages of the game, which I call "focus". I believe John's kiai is about "my" fighting spirit and focus.

Positional judgment is definitely one of the next assets to improve but it is one which continues to improve as we learn more about go (which isn't true about fighting spirit, time management or the ability to focus, which is why I take those first).

Aspects of positional judgment:
- where are my weak groups (and need defending)
- where are my opponent's weak groups (and can be attacked)
- which positions are strong (and should be stayed away from)
- who has the initiative (and how to keep or steal it)
- where's the lingering potential (aji) in settled positions (and should I take advantage of them now or later)
- who has more territory
- who has influence in which direction
- who's ahead

Positional judgment will teach you where to play next in the current position. Technique will tell you what the most commone moves are for that purpose. Tactics will allow you to read out variations and positional judgment will again enable you to choose among those.

There's a book by Cho Chikun called positional judgment but it's more like a way to count potential territory.

Instead I recommend pro game commentaries, such as Relentless. Those are full of the abovementioned evaluations.

Territory
One aspect of PJ that made me stronger is a better understanding of what territory is. We amateurs tend to think of territory as surrounded area, period. However, some of our mentally surrounded areas are really sketched out potential territories, or weakly surrounded areas or invadable, killable spaces behind a chain of stones. Real territory is "an area where I can safely put down stones under all conditions, which will live, unless I fill the last two eyes of cours; and likewise my opponent's stones, if they come there, will die without any doubt".

When potential territories are transformed into real territories, through forcing moves or as a result of invasions or reductions, we amateurs tend to see this as some kind of loss, while it is really a gain. Conversely, we tend to think of unsollicited "making" territory as a gain, while it is really a loss, because the opponent will do something bigger in the meantime.

Reason why you won't reach x rank is because you are looking for shortcuts.

In order to not get stuck until you reach your limit is to study everything.

- Joseki
- Fuseki
- Life & Death problems
- Tesuji problems
- Good shapes
- Deep reading (long ladder problems)
- General strategy (fundementals, how to attack for profit etc.)
- Positional judgement
- Counting
- Endgame
- Study pro games
- Play fast games
- Play slow games
- Review your own games
- Kibitzing other amateurs

If you do some of these but not the others you are bound to get stuck at some point. It is best to do all of those when you feel like doing it, so don't force yourself. And most important of all do not care about your rank since it is not a real representation of your strength and will most likely go up and down as you play this game.
Remember that even if something is not fun force yourself and maybe it will become fun.

Krama wrote:Reason why you won't reach x rank is because you are looking for shortcuts.

Doesn't everybody look for shortcuts?

Krama wrote:In order to not get stuck until you reach your limit is to study everything.

In other words, if you do everything you can, you will get as strong as you can get. Obviously. That's not the issue though. The issue is why do some people not find a way, despite doing what they see as their best, to reach a level where you are considered by the go world to be competent. You say study everything and don't look for shortcuts? I say virtually nobody does that - but some of them reach dan level and some never do.