Oh sorry for the question, now have got your point => there are no more loop OC! Fine Thomas.Gérard TAILLE wrote:I am trying to read your diagram.Cassandra wrote:Loops with a cycle-length of pseudo 6
##### About compositions of one ko-shape #####
SIMPLE-ko
Will save a lot of space...
Why in the upper left corner you drawed awhere I expected a
?
Same question with white stones in the bottom right corner.
GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
"Circle" is "inside the cycle", while "triangle" is "outside the cycle".Gérard TAILLE wrote:I am trying to read your diagram.
Why in the upper left corner you drawed a
Same question with white stones in the bottom right corner.
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Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Oops it is not MY defintion of "two-eye-formation", it the defintion given by Robert in his "Simplified Japanese Rules".Cassandra wrote:Dear Gérard,Cassandra wrote:Quiz master: "Oh, what a pity! You fell back to Yen 10,000. Nevertheless, the time with you was very entertaining. Many thanks! Good bye."
Honte absolutely does not like your definition of "two-eye formation" (he does not understand it and therefore cannot apply it; I have to constantly help him), but he will nevertheless compensate you for the lost 9,990,000 yen.
The only price you have to pay for this is patience.
It's like using switchbacks to get to the top of a mountain. Not particularly steep, but looooooong. And it laaaaaaasts.
You will then be more than satisfied with the panoramic view from above.
Several defintion exist OC, MY defintion may be a little simplier:
A "two-eye-formation" is a set of one or several strings of the same player and exactly two empty intersections so that:
1) each of the strings is adjacent to each of the two empty intersections,
2) each of the two empty intersections is adjacent only to the strings.
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Just returned from walking the labrador...Gérard TAILLE wrote: That way it seems to work
no komi, no prisonners, japanese rule.
The first thing Honte said was that it would be no wonder how bad you were in the game, since you passed 9 times.
However, he also said that I would play a lot worse than you because it would be a miracle how well you are still there.
He would like to assume 36 points komi, because that would correspond to about a 9-stone-handicap on an 11x11 board.
But let's return to the interrupted game...
After having used his magic DOUBLE-ko spell, Honte would like to give atari with
.(BTW, the result of the spell did NOT highlight that point, Honte had to identify it on his own thereafter. Please also note that Honte's magic spell is especially designed for the world of status confirmation. It must not be used during "play" without thinking, as its result might be misleading then.)
However, you may perceive the use of this spell as unfair, because you do not yet know its words, and classify its use as an illicit aid.
If so, Honte would like to be fair, and simply "pass".
It's your turn...
Last edited by Cassandra on Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Honte strongly suspects that the average Go player would understand much more easily that (at least) two single board points are enclosed, the occupation of which is forbidden by the rules for the opponent.Gérard TAILLE wrote:MY defintion may be a little simplier:
A "two-eye-formation" is a set of one or several strings of the same player and exactly two empty intersections so that:
1) each of the strings is adjacent to each of the two empty intersections,
2) each of the two empty intersections is adjacent only to the strings.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Bad move!Cassandra wrote:Just returned from walking the labrador...Gérard TAILLE wrote: That way it seems to work
no komi, no prisonners, japanese rule.
The first thing Honte said was that it would be no wonder how bad you were in the game, since you passed 9 times.
However, he also said that I would play a lot worse than you because it would be a miracle how well you are still there.
He would like to assume 36 points komi, because that would correspond to about a 9-stone-handicap on an 11x11 board.
But let's return to the interrupted game...
After having used his magic DOUBLE-ko spell, Honte would like to give atari with
(BTW, the result of the spell did NOT highlight that point, Honte had to identify it on his own thereafter. Please also note that Honte's magic spell is especially designed for the world of status confirmation. It must not be used during "play" without thinking, as its result might be misleading then.)
However, you may perceive the use of this spell as unfair, because you do not yet know its words, and classify its use as an illicit aid.
If so, Honte would like to be fair, and simply "pass".
It's your turn...
Remember you, Thomas, play the first move while Honte might then continue the game until its end!
You can make a second and last attempt
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
I believe in Honte!Gérard TAILLE wrote:Bad move!
Remember you, Thomas, play the first move while Honte might then continue the game until its end!
You can make a second and last attempt
It's still your turn...
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Yes Thomas OC it works also. Basically I do not have really a preference because in practice the players will agree to the result far before the complete building of the formation => I will take the simpliest wording.Cassandra wrote:Honte strongly suspects that the average Go player would understand much more easily that (at least) two single board points are enclosed, the occupation of which is forbidden by the rules for the opponent.Gérard TAILLE wrote:MY defintion may be a little simplier:
A "two-eye-formation" is a set of one or several strings of the same player and exactly two empty intersections so that:
1) each of the strings is adjacent to each of the two empty intersections,
2) each of the two empty intersections is adjacent only to the strings.
BTW if you use the wording "forbidden by the rules" do not forget that retaking immediatly a ko is "forbidden by the rules".
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
One of the metaphorical names for the game of Go isGérard TAILLE wrote:Bad move!
手談.
("shudan")
手 is "hand".
談 is a compound of 言 and 炎.
言 is "word", "say", "speak".
炎 is two times 火.
火 is "flame", "fire".
Thus 炎 is "fire", "excessive fire".
Thus 談 is "fiery discussion", "leaping discussion", "spirited diccussion".
Thus 手談 is "hand talk".
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
OK then I answerCassandra wrote:I believe in Honte!Gérard TAILLE wrote:Bad move!
Remember you, Thomas, play the first move while Honte might then continue the game until its end!
You can make a second and last attempt
It's still your turn...
and now you to have leave the room and Honte will continue the game.
Honte is very clever, no doubt about that, and Honte knows perfectly he has to play at "a". The point is that he is in very great trouble : how Honte can put a stone at "a", with his big paws, without throwing away a great part of the stones on the board. Surely Honte will have great difficulty because the risk is very high and if it happens no doubt the referee will decide the game will be lost for Honte. In addition even if Honte manage to play at "a" the game continue, the ko fight will continue and Honte is sure to finally lost the game.
You missed the point Thomas. The only move Honte can make perfectly is the pass move!
But after the
exchange above white will win if Honte pass forever. That is the point you had to find.This is the right move. Now Honte is quite happy to pass forever and it follows the following moves by white:
Thomas : congratulation Honte, you won the game! You are very clever and you managed to avoid TRYING to put a stone on the board
Honte : Your first move was very good indeed. With it I had only to sleep and to pass forever. Thank you Thomas, you are a very good partner.
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Here is a black two-eye formation with four groups!Cassandra wrote:Honte strongly suspects that the average Go player would understand much more easily that (at least) two single board points are enclosed, the occupation of which is forbidden by the rules for the opponent.Gérard TAILLE wrote:MY defintion may be a little simplier:
A "two-eye-formation" is a set of one or several strings of the same player and exactly two empty intersections so that:
1) each of the strings is adjacent to each of the two empty intersections,
2) each of the two empty intersections is adjacent only to the strings.
BTW what is the definition of a false eye?
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Oh, it seems that you are not aware that Go is like tanGo. The Highlander Principle does not apply here!Gérard TAILLE wrote:OK then I answer
and now you to have leave the room and Honte will continue the game.
Honte is very clever, no doubt about that, and Honte knows perfectly he has to play at "a".
Do you have any idea what special skills the English breeders wanted to breed into Labradors?The point is that he is in very great trouble : how Honte can put a stone at "a", with his big paws, without throwing away a great part of the stones on the board.
The ancestors of the Labradors come from the east coast of Canada. English people visiting their colony were thrilled to see large dogs in the water helping fishermen pull their nets ashore.
"Swimming" and "getting something out of the water" were already part of the genes. An idea for the use of Labradors in England was quickly found: bringing ducks shot while hunting and other waterfowl that had fallen dead into the water to the hunters.
Thought and done! However, the landlords were not really enthusiastic about the results of the first hunts with Labrador support. They would have liked to have their duck with no holes or missing parts on their plate. As a result, those Labradors were used in breeding that were more careful and more delicate in biting than their conspecifics. Over time, the Labradors have got a "soft mouth", i.e. they bite very gently and can also dose their bite very specifically. In contrast to many other dogs.
Of course, Honte clamps a go-stone between his teeth and then lets it fall very carefully onto the board.
---------------------------------
I have to admit that it is no "hand talk" on Honte's side, but he can still "talk" with you.
By the way, Honte told me that he would like to answer your move with
in the lower left corner!He assumes that he will only have to use his teeth one more time.
But probably you want to resign?
Your turn.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Congratulations Honte to have managed to put a stone correctly on the board but I know that now you need to pass for some moves before you can try again to put another stones on the board => I continue the game.Cassandra wrote:By the way, Honte told me that he would like to answer your move with
He assumes that he will only have to use his teeth one more time.
But probably you want to resign?
Your turn.
Be serious Honte which move do you prefer to see, a or b?
BTW did you appreciate this problem?
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Loops with a cycle-length of pseudo 6
##### About compositions of two ko-shapes #####
DOUBLE-ko
This concentrated form will save a lot of space.
The shadowed bar in the middle is only there to achieve an odd length that suits the diagrams better than an even one.
In the following, for the sake of simplicity, we will dispense with explicitly specifying the markings.
##### GENUINE double-ko cycle #####
This diagram shows the GENUINE double-ko cycle.
The marked stones are those that have been played last.
Please note that the two "pass" are an integral part of a GENUINE DOUBLE-ko cycle.
The player in turn does not have a ko-shape they would be able to capture in.
Therefore, it can NOT have a GENUINE length of 6.
----------------------
Two of the four GENUINE moves (top, bottom) are atari at the opponent's group, so they must not be left unanswered.
You will realise that this results in the following:
While there are FOUR different combinations of the INDIVIDUAL states of each single-ko of the compound, the DOUBLE-ko as such has ONLY TWO states.
Both players are able to leave the cycle after their opponent's "pass" only.
Please note that White's exit option in the upper left is not shown in full length for the sake of clarity.
We chose Black's exit in the lower right for an exemplary case.
----------------------
Black has two options for his move outside the cycle:
RIGHT:
-- Black plays a "pass".
White has three options then:
-- She plays also a "pass". This will end status confirmation.
-- She captures into the double-ko. This returns into the cycle.
-- She plays a GENUINE move outside the cycle. This jumps to the left side of the diagram.
LEFT:
-- Black plays a GENUINE move outside the cycle.
White has two options then:
-- She also plays a move outside the cycle.
Black has two options then:
-- He plays another move outside the cycle. This continues the game outside the cycle.
-- He captures into the double-ko. This returns into the cycle.
-- She captures into the double-ko. This returns into the cycle.
_________________________
EDITED
##### About compositions of two ko-shapes #####
DOUBLE-ko
This concentrated form will save a lot of space.
The shadowed bar in the middle is only there to achieve an odd length that suits the diagrams better than an even one.
In the following, for the sake of simplicity, we will dispense with explicitly specifying the markings.
##### GENUINE double-ko cycle #####
This diagram shows the GENUINE double-ko cycle.
The marked stones are those that have been played last.
Please note that the two "pass" are an integral part of a GENUINE DOUBLE-ko cycle.
The player in turn does not have a ko-shape they would be able to capture in.
Therefore, it can NOT have a GENUINE length of 6.
----------------------
Two of the four GENUINE moves (top, bottom) are atari at the opponent's group, so they must not be left unanswered.
You will realise that this results in the following:
While there are FOUR different combinations of the INDIVIDUAL states of each single-ko of the compound, the DOUBLE-ko as such has ONLY TWO states.
Both players are able to leave the cycle after their opponent's "pass" only.
Please note that White's exit option in the upper left is not shown in full length for the sake of clarity.
We chose Black's exit in the lower right for an exemplary case.
----------------------
Black has two options for his move outside the cycle:
RIGHT:
-- Black plays a "pass".
White has three options then:
-- She plays also a "pass". This will end status confirmation.
-- She captures into the double-ko. This returns into the cycle.
-- She plays a GENUINE move outside the cycle. This jumps to the left side of the diagram.
LEFT:
-- Black plays a GENUINE move outside the cycle.
White has two options then:
-- She also plays a move outside the cycle.
Black has two options then:
-- He plays another move outside the cycle. This continues the game outside the cycle.
-- He captures into the double-ko. This returns into the cycle.
-- She captures into the double-ko. This returns into the cycle.
_________________________
EDITED
Last edited by Cassandra on Sat Aug 28, 2021 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Not quite clear for me.Cassandra wrote: ##### GENUINE double-ko cycle #####
This diagram shows the GENUINE double-ko cycle.
The marked stones are those that have been played last.
Please note that the two "pass" are an integral part of a GENUINE DOUBLE-ko cycle.
The player in turn does not have a ko-shape they would be able to capture in.
Therefore, it can NOT have a GENUINE length of 6.
I expected
Last edited by Gérard TAILLE on Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.