Life In 19x19

Fredrik wrote:If you are ahead by ten points, why enter the insanely complex fight?

Because it's fun

In online games I seldomly count - often I can feel who is leading. In real life tournament games I will count when I have enough time available.

Li Kao wrote:

Fredrik wrote:If you are ahead by ten points, why enter the insanely complex fight?

Because it's fun

You don't play Go to have fun, you play Go to win.

Aphelion wrote:You don't play Go to have fun, you play Go to win.

Speak for yourself. I play to have fun. If I win that is a nice bonus. The win at all costs attitude is what is bringing this country to its knees.

Aphelion wrote:You don't play Go to have fun, you play Go to win.

DrStraw wrote:Speak for yourself. I play to have fun.

- Why is the word "fun" some kind of all-encompassing quality which redeems all faults and mistakes? A bad poker player keeps playing, because he occasionally wins money, even if he loses much more in the long run. There has to be something satisfying in the game. There has to be perception that choices matter and that the player feels he is good at what he's doing. Every successful game is built upon these elements.

Helel wrote:

Aphelion wrote:
You don't play Go to have fun, you play Go to win.

Go is a really a kind of mental intercourse. There is no defeat as long as it is satisfying for both parties.

Sometimes when I lose badly, I feel violated.

DrStraw wrote:

Aphelion wrote:You don't play Go to have fun, you play Go to win.

Speak for yourself. I play to have fun. If I win that is a nice bonus. The win at all costs attitude is what is bringing this country to its knees.

Gah, sarcasm really doesn't translate over the Internet. More seriously though, I would find it impossible to have fun if I know I am clearly playing non-optimally.

Toge wrote:There has to be perception that choices matter and that the player feels he is good at what he's doing.

Does there? You mean if you don't think you are very skilled at something you could never find it enjoyable? That's sad

topazg wrote:Does there? You mean if you don't think you are very skilled at something you could never find it enjoyable? That's sad

- Yup. That's the way human mind works
Luckily most people understand it, so they give children exercises that are appropriate for their skills.
Those people who have no experience of foreigners, or social skills for that matter, tend to have attitudes full of negative prejudice.

Helel wrote:No... not in my experience anyway. Most people are not very skilled at all, but they seem to manage just fine...

- skill (noun)
an ability to do an activity or job well, especially because you have practised it

By definition most people are skilled in walking and talking. We've done them since we were toddlers. Estimating territory in a game of Go is something we picked up later. The more able you are in particular activity, the more you enjoy it. That's the view I hold. If you haven't jogged, go out and do it. Observe carefully your feelings.

Helel wrote:What has that to do with anything? OK, I tend to assume that people are something less than perfect, but how is that connected to your elitist view of joy?

- Sometimes one has to stop and ponder

Having progresss brings joyness!

yeah charlie, candy mountain. its a land of sweets and joy and joyness

Well actually I dont count exact numbers or as close as I can but, I do estimate after fights and what not. Im finally reading attack and defense and it said that a player should atleast estimate from time to time, so I thought it couldnt hurt.

Children find learning things enjoyable, because if they didn't, they wouldn't ever learn anything and would not be fit for life.

Adults don't have much reason to find learning enjoyable. If they do, it's a sign of infantilism

On the other hand it makes sense for an adult to derive joy from being strong or skilled at something.

So what we have here is a clash of wizened maturity represented by Toge with childish innocence represented by Helel et al. Both are right, they are simply at different stages of life

palapiku wrote:...childish innocence represented by Helel...

Aphelion wrote:More seriously though, I would find it impossible to have fun if I know I am clearly playing non-optimally.

We're kyu players. By definition, we're playing non-optimally.

I enjoy the game if it's a mentally stimulating battle, even if I lose at the end. If it's the sort of game where I fall behind by a lot at the beginning, I find it much less enjoyable, even if I come back to win (as happened to me recently when my opponent missed a cutting point that caused him to lose a 30-point group).