Life In 19x19

The apparent impetus of original posting is that "The rules of Go should be future proof." I guess by this the poster means that future discoveries about the game should not reveal today's results to have been unfairly advantageous for one side or another. The problem is Go is a deterministic game with a finite number of playable combinations, yet as of today has not been solved. Should Go become solvable in the future, today's rules about Komi can never be future proof.

Also, you may argue that current komi is too low or too high, but it is not likely off by more than a point or two, which is less than the noise introduced from mistakes even at the highest levels of play. That is, it is not likely that there are people running around who are serial victims of improper komi.

billywoods wrote:...
What if I don't care what the correct komi is, and just want to put stones on the board? You seem to be telling us to just bid 6.5 and then it's over, but I think you're misunderstanding. It's really not the number or colour that matters - even talking about komi, or the choice between black and white, introduces a meaningless psychological and competitive edge to the game. ...

What "meaningless psychological and competitive edge" is introduced? Can you elaborate? I don't get the impression that this edge has to exist for players that don't care about komi, but maybe I don't totally understand what you mean.

The apparent impetus of original posting is that "The rules of Go should be future proof." I guess by this the poster means that future discoveries about the game should not reveal today's results to have been unfairly advantageous for one side or another. The problem is Go is a deterministic game with a finite number of playable combinations, yet as of today has not been solved. Should Go become solvable in the future, today's rules about Komi can never be future proof.

I'm not sure what you mean by "today's rules about Komi." Do you mean, even if Komi pie were adopted, once Go is solved it will show even those komi rules to be flawed somehow? Why? Just because a game may be solved by computer would not mean it could no longer be played. Humans could always "retreat to higher ground" and play on a larger grid if they wish to. In which case, komi pie would be even more justified IMO.

Also, you may argue that current komi is too low or too high, but it is not likely off by more than a point or two, which is less than the noise introduced from mistakes even at the highest levels of play. That is, it is not likely that there are people running around who are serial victims of improper komi.

Oh but there are! You can tell by their sad faces.

Another komi victim chooses a life of crime instead of dealing with all this nonsense. What a waste.

Kirby wrote:

billywoods wrote:...
What if I don't care what the correct komi is, and just want to put stones on the board? You seem to be telling us to just bid 6.5 and then it's over, but I think you're misunderstanding. It's really not the number or colour that matters - even talking about komi, or the choice between black and white, introduces a meaningless psychological and competitive edge to the game. ...

What "meaningless psychological and competitive edge" is introduced? Can you elaborate? I don't get the impression that this edge has to exist for players that don't care about komi, but maybe I don't totally understand what you mean.

Let's say the AGA, to be open to different rules preferences, decreed that all games had to start with a negotiation phase during which the players argue over which rule will be used for each section of the game (which ko rule will be used, how to count, which komi to use, and so on), and that if agreement cannot be reached, players can bid for their favored rule-set.

Now, if we were all robots, this couldn't possible make much difference other than allowing people who really enjoy playing under a non-standard ruleset to play under that ruleset. But in practice, do you think "rule-set pie" would make playing go more fun and more focused, or more irritating and more superficial?

Kirby wrote:I don't get the impression that this edge has to exist for players that don't care about komi

I don't care about komi. But as soon as my opponent bids something weird or gives me the sort of wry smile that says "I know something you don't", and I'm forced to make a decision, I'm locked in some weird non-go mind game. I simply don't like those mind games. I like not having control over whether the komi is good or bad for me; I like the fact that, regardless of whether I win by a couple of points or lose by a couple of points, I can think "that was a really close and fun game", not "phew, I won / aw, I lost"; I like that, if my opponent says "shall we set komi to x?" or "shall I take / give you n stones?", I can respond "yeah, sure, whatever, it doesn't matter in the slightest".

billywoods wrote:...
I don't care about komi. But as soon as my opponent bids something weird or gives me the sort of wry smile that says "I know something you don't", and I'm forced to make a decision, I'm locked in some weird non-go mind game. I simply don't like those mind games. I like not having control over whether the komi is good or bad for me; I like the fact that, regardless of whether I win by a couple of points or lose by a couple of points, I can think "that was a really close and fun game", not "phew, I won / aw, I lost"; I like that, if my opponent says "shall we set komi to x?" or "shall I take / give you n stones?", I can respond "yeah, sure, whatever, it doesn't matter in the slightest".

So I don't see why komi pie is a problem to you. Don't like mind games? Don't care about komi? Then just pick white if the komi bid is greater than 6.5, and pick black if the komi bid is less. Or with blind komi pie, just always bid 6.5.

Is that really that much of a mind game? Since komi pie is flexible, it's only a mind game for those that care. If we take the literal pie analogy, when your friend cuts the pie and you don't care about where the best cut is, just grab a piece of pie and eat it. No thinking required!

Kirby wrote:just pick white if the komi bid is greater than 6.5, and pick black if the komi bid is less

Why would I follow that strategy (rather than some other one)? I don't have any attachment or aversion to the number 6.5. I just want to play go. In a normal tournament, 6.5 is the default, and so accepting it is the fastest way to play go. I don't accept it because I think it's fair or reasonable or sporting, but because I don't care whether I win or lose. The thought of squabbling over a few free points is completely foreign to me, and this system would force me to choose (at least at random) amongst a bunch of options I don't want to choose from. See what jts said for a more exaggerated example of exactly the same thing.

Kirby wrote:grab a piece of pie and eat it. No thinking required!

Your analogy doesn't work. I like pie.

billywoods wrote: ...The thought of squabbling over a few free points is completely foreign to me, and this system would force me to choose (at least at random) amongst a bunch of options I don't want to choose from.

This doesn't require you to choose "amongst a bunch of options". Pick one number at random and you're done. It only becomes complicated if you actually care.

billywoods wrote: Your analogy doesn't work. I like pie.

You don't like points? Then, again, it makes no difference. You can still play go the same way. You are just "burdened" by having to vocalize a single word (eg. "six"). Very hard to say a number, huh?

You cannot give both players the same chances with komi, because komi can only be 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5, ... The real, fair komi will be some number in between, I think.

So the nigiri system is better than the pie system, because with the pi system, the second player always chooses the better deal. (The first one cannot make two equally good choices.)

SpongeBob wrote:You cannot give both players the same chances with komi, because komi can only be 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5, ... The real, fair komi will be some number in between, I think.

So the nigiri system is better than the pie system, because with the pi system, the second player always chooses the better deal. (The first one cannot make two equally good choices.)

Not sure if this is really an issue, but if it is, it's more of a problem with the possible komi values. Fixing this problem would then amount to allowing other komi values - which would apply regardless of using the pie rule.

Kirby wrote:Not sure if this is really an issue, but if it is, it's more of a problem with the possible komi values. Fixing this problem would then amount to allowing other komi values - which would apply regardless of using the pie rule.

This cannot be fixed. Setting the komi to 6.1 or 6.9 is the same as 6.5.

Kirby wrote:Is that really that much of a mind game? Since komi pie is flexible, it's only a mind game for those that care. If we take the literal pie analogy, when your friend cuts the pie and you don't care about where the best cut is, just grab a piece of pie and eat it. No thinking required!

For people who dislike komi pie for the mind game, it's a question of systemic and random error. Let's say 9.5 is correct komi for amateurs on average. Then half my games I'm advantaged and half my games I'm disadvantaged. It averages out, so I don't really care. We could nigiri for two handicap stones, and I'd win 25-30% even with the handicap, and lose that many giving the handicap, and my average results would be the same. They'd still be fun games of go.

With komi pie, though, if I just go with the 6.5 side every time, and 9.5 is correct, then every game I'm a little behind. Nigiri, I can't change. Correct bidding I can, so it becomes part of the game.

And because komi is going to differ by person, we're in an asymmetric information situation. I sit across from somebody who bids 8.5 komi. Did they calculate that that's correct komi for them, so either choice is fine? Or maybe they're actually a 11.5 komi player, and hoping I take white? But if I take black to counteract that, it may have been a ruse: they prefer white, being happy with a 4.5 komi. So now I've given them a 4 points advantage!

To use the pie analogy, if my friend slices the pie and grabs a piece at random, I don't care. If he cuts one piece larger and then tries to push the smaller one on me every time, I might.

SpongeBob wrote:

Kirby wrote:Not sure if this is really an issue, but if it is, it's more of a problem with the possible komi values. Fixing this problem would then amount to allowing other komi values - which would apply regardless of using the pie rule.

This cannot be fixed. Setting the komi to 6.1 or 6.9 is the same as 6.5.

I didn't quite get what you meant before, but I think I understand, now. You are saying that it's likely impossible to get a komi in which it is perfectly even for black and white, right?

That could be the case, sure. But with the blind bidding, neither side is at an advantage since both players bid.

Polama wrote:
To use the pie analogy, if my friend slices the pie and grabs a piece at random, I don't care. If he cuts one piece larger and then tries to push the smaller one on me every time, I might.

So if you care, take the other piece. If you don't care, it doesn't matter. But you have a point that nigiri can even out. I just feel that for a particular game, komi pie has potential to leave both parties happy with their piece of pie.

Polama wrote: For people who dislike komi pie for the mind game, it's a question of systemic and random error. Let's say 9.5 is correct komi for amateurs on average. Then half my games I'm advantaged and half my games I'm disadvantaged. It averages out, so I don't really care. We could nigiri for two handicap stones, and I'd win 25-30% even with the handicap, and lose that many giving the handicap, and my average results would be the same. They'd still be fun games of go.

With komi pie, though, if I just go with the 6.5 side every time, and 9.5 is correct, then every game I'm a little behind. Nigiri, I can't change. Correct bidding I can, so it becomes part of the game.

And because komi is going to differ by person, we're in an asymmetric information situation. I sit across from somebody who bids 8.5 komi. Did they calculate that that's correct komi for them, so either choice is fine? Or maybe they're actually a 11.5 komi player, and hoping I take white? But if I take black to counteract that, it may have been a ruse: they prefer white, being happy with a 4.5 komi. So now I've given them a 4 points advantage!

To use the pie analogy, if my friend slices the pie and grabs a piece at random, I don't care. If he cuts one piece larger and then tries to push the smaller one on me every time, I might.

Let's assume that statistically correct komi is 7. But suppose that there is a 9 komi person. What does that mean? It does not mean that when that person plays the average opponent of equal rank, if they take Black their median result on the board is +9, while if they take White, their median result is -5. That would be the case if they were better than average. Proper komi for them is 7, and they have a 2 point advantage either way. What it means to be a 9 komi person is that against the average opponent of equal rank their median result as Black differs from their median result as White by 18 points.

Unless their opponent knows them, they are unlikely to be aware of that fact. So if they set komi at 9, they are indifferent whether their opponent takes Black or White. If they set it lower, an opponent who has heard about them can take advantage. An opponent who knows about them will also set komi at 9. If he sets it lower, the 9 komi player can take advantage by taking Black.

Suppose that you have a 5 komi person. If they set komi at 5, they are indifferent whether their opponent takes Black or White. If they set it higher, an opponent who has heard about them can take advantage. Similarly, if the opponent sets it higher, the 5 komi player can take advantage by taking White.

What if a 9 komi player faces a 5 komi player? Unclear. Do their styles cancel out?

Edit: What this suggests to me is komi bidding. Set komi as the average of the bids (with a half point adjustment as necessary). But then choose Black and White randomly. Bidding should make for closer games.