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#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=10611

Page 6 of 13

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:13 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
As per plan...

Some further explanations: Firstly, I'm sort of vaguely remembering this being joseki at some point, so I'm hoping it's globally ok here (never a guarantee with any joseki), but I'm choosing it more because I want to induce Black to settle the top for me a bit, and all of these moves have value if/when Black tries to handle the left hand side. By adding a bit of three dimensional depth to my moyo at the edges, I get more freedom to make territory making choices depending on how he chooses to play.

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:06 am
by SoDesuNe
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Surpised again.

First instinct is this. In a blitz game I would not even think twice ^^

But for the sake of showing my flaws in judgement and reading, I will try to add some variations and explanations first. I guess I also have to count soon.

Next time : D
After writing I began to not like :b23:. Why do I want to break out when I could attack the upper White group a bit more severely?

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:37 pm
by EdLee
SoDesuNe wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . c b 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]
W has a push-and-cut: :white:(a) - :black:(b) - :white:(c).

Or, :black: can turn at (a) directly.

Re:

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:38 pm
by skydyr
EdLee wrote:
SoDesuNe wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O d . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . c b 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]
W has a push-and-cut: :white:(a) - :black:(b) - :white:(c).

Or, :black: can turn at (a) directly.
Black also has a countercut at D in the diagram which could make things exciting, so white may not want to cut right away.

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:05 pm
by EdLee
skydyr wrote:Black also has a countercut at D in the diagram which could make things exciting, so white may not want to cut right away.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . .
$$ | . . X O O 4 5 . . .
$$ | . . X , X O 7 . . ,
$$ | . . X . X 1 . . . .
$$ | . . O . 3 2 X . . .
$$ | . . . O . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Yes, W could give up the 2 corner stones if it's bigger to cut off the :b2: group.
So yes, the timing is important and depends on the global situation.

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:05 am
by SoDesuNe
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Planning 1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 4 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I'm thinking hard about this move but maybe this is the reason why it's wrong? : D
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Planning 2
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 1 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . b 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Does that work?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Planning 3
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 1 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
So many cutting points... It also looks kind of vulgar/crude...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Planning 4
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 1 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This can't be good for White, can it?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Planning 5
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 1 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This seems to be a bit more complicated...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Planning 6
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 1 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Also possible but looks funny and White still has to spend several moves to live. There is some nasty cutting Aji though.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Planning Alternative 1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O b 2 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
The reason I doubt :b23: is the right move is that White can just defend (is induced to defend actually) his weaker group and then my stone seems to be on dame. Of course I can still attack later on (maybe even exchange 'a' for 'b' right away) but for now I have no clue what to do with :b23:.

Re:

Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:38 am
by skydyr
EdLee wrote:
skydyr wrote:Black also has a countercut at D in the diagram which could make things exciting, so white may not want to cut right away.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . .
$$ | . . X O O 4 5 . . .
$$ | . . X , X O 7 . . ,
$$ | . . X . X 1 . . . .
$$ | . . O . 3 2 X . . .
$$ | . . . O . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Yes, W could give up the 2 corner stones if it's bigger to cut off the :b2: group.
So yes, the timing is important and depends on the global situation.
Agreed. My instinct is that locally it's a bit painful to give up those two stones, but it really depends on what's going on elsewhere to determine if white's attack on the new center group will be better or worse than keeping the two stones. In this case, with the black shimari at the top right, I'd be inclined to wait until white could build up more right side strength.

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
by SoDesuNe
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 4 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Ah, why not?
These turn-based games always beguile me into delaying my move until I'm really, really sure. But I never am : D

This looks like fun though!

Know, what you can know, do, what can be done, and stand up again if you fail epically - something like that : )

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:40 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 4 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Sorry for the delay, been thinking about this one. I think if that corner is sealed in, there are some interesting life and death issues with funny placements. It's not a shape I know unfortunately, but I think sealing in is good anyway. Not too disappointed with Black's choice, as his stone is low, but there is some good development potential for him at the top. Depends how he wants to fight this now

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:10 am
by SoDesuNe
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 4 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I'm still favouring this move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . B . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Or is it broken shape and I just wasted the marked stone?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 4 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 3 O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Cutting is not that easy but there is a lot of bad Aji for me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . 6 7 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 4 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 3 O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 2 1 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Right now this does not work though, because the ladder is good for me and White has plenty of bad Aji himself.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 :w40: at :b35:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 1 2 O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O O X 7 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O B O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
The again a lot of Aji remaining...

'a' is Sente against the two marked stones ('b'-'c' captures) and also attacks the stones at the top... When it should come to that I either have to live there or win the Semeai against White's group.

I can of course just think about giving away the two stones to take the top right but that would be pretty soft, wouldn't it? =D
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O c a . b . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . B 4 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Back to the beginning.

It could be my weak understanding but I think the marked stone sill has Aji ('a' to 'c') and White's marked stone is also broken shape and looks off. Still, depending on whether or not I really have Aji at the top, White has potential to make territory there whereas I don't do much with my stones - for now. A little later they might come in handy to invade White's left.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
White could also play like this, I mean, I got surprised before : D

Aji, Aji, Aji.

I can cut but he can easily sacrifice. In the end I have to be sure that I will end up with a good attack and not further solidify White's Moyo.
Maybe I will find other candidate moves, so I'm not making my play right now : )

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:15 am
by EdLee
I wonder if :b23: is overplay, or misplaced ?

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:51 am
by Uberdude
SoDesuNe wrote:
<snip>
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 :w40: at :b35:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 1 2 O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O O X 7 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X d a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O B O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
The again a lot of Aji remaining...

'a' is Sente against the two marked stones ('b'-'c' captures) and also attacks the stones at the top
Nope, quite a bad misread here. b-c captures the 2 stones in a net directly, without needing a. Even if black cuts to the left of b white can atari to the left and squeeze and ladder to prevent black breaking through to the corner. Black could play empty triangle at d instead of solid connect to take a liberty to prevent the net, but it's very ugly.

P.S. for 23 I prefer the joseki moves of f14, or maybe the fancy g13 "grappling hook" tesuji.

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:11 am
by SoDesuNe
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 :w40: at :b35:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 1 2 O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O O X 7 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O B O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I think the previous comments did also point it out: There is no ladder ^^ White can net with 'b' and 'c' without 'a'. Pattern recognition needs maintenance.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 :w40: at :b35:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 1 2 O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Can I play :b41: and get a good trade or did I miss something else?

Turn-base is really troublesome : (

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:13 am
by Uberdude
SoDesuNe wrote:
Can I play :b41: and get a good trade or did I miss something else?
No trade: same net squeeze, though black can play a threatening the snapback so can capture the marked white stone as scant compensation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O O X 3 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W a . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 4 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:34 pm
by SoDesuNe
I guess it's time to cut my losses... :b23: was the wrong direction after all - can't make my stones work together now. I think I will play to develop the top.

Meh... : D
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