A question about goproblems.com

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Marcus
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by Marcus »

Wow, lots of discussion. I'm not sure who's proposing what ideas anymore. :P

In terms of Tsumego, there's no doubt that it CAN improve reading. The debate seems to be clicking before you have the variation worked out, versus clicking through the variation first and then examining the result.

Tsumego is a tool, though. I'm going to try and describe my ideas here using a metaphorical structure, though the metaphor is overly simplistic, I think. Hopefully, it makes sense.

Let's say it's a screwdriver, for simplicity's sake. Now, let's say Player Alpha's learning process for reading can be represented an infinite set of screws, and it improves by tightening each screw. The process of tightening represents the visualization before playing out the stone. Once the screw is "tight", we can say that Player Alpha is "reasonably sure" of the solution and can play it out, satisfied that he/she got the correct answer. The tightened screw represents a tight hold on a particular concept. It takes a bit of effort, but the screw will hold and won't loosen easily, especially if you tighten more screws close by, sharing the task of holding related grey-matter ideas in place.

Let us now consider Player Beta, who's learning process for reading can be represented by an infinite set of closed paint cans. "Clicking Through" a tsumego is the act of opening one can with our tsumego brand screwdriver. Unlike the screws, all this does is expose the ideas and allow them to be examined. There is less initial investment in effort involved (though some cans may be harder to open than others). The next step for this player is to make sure the idea paint inside doesn't evaporate. Beta needs to paint (play games using the idea) and needs to think about what designs he can do with the paint as well (thinking about variations AFTER looking at the solution).

Clicking through alone, as Kirby said only wastes the paint. However, some people just learn better by opening up the idea first, and then building on and improving their internal structure. This requires a greater flexibility with memory (and possibly capacity as well). Other people learn better by stretching their internal structure to map to unfamiliar situations, finding similarities and building possibilities first. This requires greater analytical skill.

Both Alpha and Beta improve their visualization ... Alpha builds an internal mind-structure which represents his reading skill; Beta paints an internal mind-picture that represents his reading skill.

I don't real people are as polarized as this, though. I think that there is benefit for players wishing to improve to use both methods, depending on the results they get from applying either strategy.

End message: don't be lazy. If you "click through" a tsumego solution, you are not done with it. Arguably, for some sets of tsumego, even if you have a "solution" thoguht out before you place your first stone (along with any number of variations, you're still not done with it unless you understand what you got out of solving it.

Post scriptum: I am fairly good at tsumego, but I learn more like Beta.
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by daniel_the_smith »

This debate reminds me of the anecdote related in an article I saw a while ago.

There was a debate, in the late 1800s, about whether "imagination" was simply a turn of phrase or a real phenomenon. That is, can people actually create images in their minds which they see vividly, or do they simply say "I saw it in my mind" as a metaphor for considering what it looked like?

...

Galton gave people some very detailed surveys, and found that some people did have mental imagery and others didn't. The ones who did had simply assumed everyone did, and the ones who didn't had simply assumed everyone didn't, to the point of coming up with absurd justifications for why they were lying or misunderstanding the question.


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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by Kirby »

I could be generalizing from one example - my own experience. But it is difficult for me to understand the other perspective, if my brain doesn't work that way.

I am surprised that Marcus said that he was a "Beta" learner. I don't know his true tsumego ability, but I don't understand that way of learning well.

If I try to click through a tsumego, and take a look at the "paint" inside of the cans that Marcus describes, I am seeing new variations, sure... But I cannot feel my brain being exerted.

I do not feel effort. I do not feel improvement. I do not feel like I am learning. Maybe I am. Maybe I'm not, and my brain just doesn't work that way.

I feel like I am being lazy if I click through a tsumego. Marcus says not to be lazy. For the beta learner, he says:

However, some people just learn better by opening up the idea first, and then building on and improving their internal structure.


I do not understand how this works. Could I get elaboration on how one does the "building on and improving internal structure" part? This baffles me.
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by Chew Terr »

Kirby wrote:I do not understand how this works. Could I get elaboration on how one does the "building on and improving internal structure" part? This baffles me.


This refers to seeing one idea in a tsumego, and then practicing it. For example, the first time you see snapbacks in tsumego, think of just clicking through the first ten or so. After that, try to look for every possible snapback in your next ten games or 100 tsumego. You'll be able to pick them out just from having seen the idea, and after the practice, you'll have digested the idea so that it's part of your skillset.
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by Kirby »

Chew Terr wrote:
Kirby wrote:I do not understand how this works. Could I get elaboration on how one does the "building on and improving internal structure" part? This baffles me.


This refers to seeing one idea in a tsumego, and then practicing it. For example, the first time you see snapbacks in tsumego, think of just clicking through the first ten or so. After that, try to look for every possible snapback in your next ten games or 100 tsumego. You'll be able to pick them out just from having seen the idea, and after the practice, you'll have digested the idea so that it's part of your skillset.


That's interesting, if that's what Marcus was referring to.

I guess that I have done that with some shapes - but not due to a conscious effort. In the process of trying to read, sometimes my brain identifies some shortcuts.

But in the case of a snapback, wouldn't it be more efficient if you thought hard on the first problem rather than having to go through 10 of them to get the idea?
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by Monadology »

Kirby wrote:But in the case of a snapback, wouldn't it be more efficient if you thought hard on the first problem rather than having to go through 10 of them to get the idea?


Not necessarily. For some people, intense effort on one problem will not help the principle to stick. They need to contexualize it more broadly.
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by Chew Terr »

Kirby wrote:But in the case of a snapback, wouldn't it be more efficient if you thought hard on the first problem rather than having to go through 10 of them to get the idea?


Only kind of. Thinking hard the first time helps you identify the underlying principles better, perhaps, but it still doesn't ingrain the pattern into your head. Regardless of how you solve it the first time, you'll still have to see the same pattern over and over, whether in similar problems or in games. You know how, in Tesuji, Davies first walks you through one example of each tesuji and then gives you different problems on each type? This is the same as clicking throught he first time and then trying to recognize it afterwards. You still have to read in games and later problems to know if it IS that tesuji, but at least you know to consider that starting point as an option.

I think there's room for both, and the issue isn't black and white. Tesuji and shape problems are particularly hard if you've never seen the shape before, but become much easier if you've been shown it a few times, whether you read it yourself or not. Again, I'm not knocking reading, you always have to read to make sure that squeeze or nose tesuji or whatever actually works here. However, playing through tsumego quickly CAN have some value, similar to watching lots of pro games, in that you start to see 'Oh hey, this looks like that connect-and-die problem I kept seeing recently'.
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by Kirby »

Monadology wrote:
Kirby wrote:But in the case of a snapback, wouldn't it be more efficient if you thought hard on the first problem rather than having to go through 10 of them to get the idea?


Not necessarily. For some people, intense effort on one problem will not help the principle to stick. They need to contexualize it more broadly.


Well, I guess that could be the case, but if that's the only reasoning there is, I don't think this method of study is for me.

I can't really expect to understand it if the rationale is that it "works for some people".
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by Kirby »

Chew Terr wrote:...You know how, in Tesuji, Davies first walks you through one example of each tesuji and then gives you different problems on each type? This is the same as clicking throught he first time and then trying to recognize it afterwards. You still have to read in games and later problems to know if it IS that tesuji, but at least you know to consider that starting point as an option.


I've never read Tesuji, but I get the point you are trying to make.

..
However, playing through tsumego quickly CAN have some value, similar to watching lots of pro games, in that you start to see 'Oh hey, this looks like that connect-and-die problem I kept seeing recently'.


I agree that it has value. It has always just seemed more effective to me to go the other route.
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by Kirby »

Helel wrote:
Kirby wrote:But in the case of a snapback, wouldn't it be more efficient if you thought hard on the first problem rather than having to go through 10 of them to get the idea?


No, not really.
You want the knowledge to reach your subconscious, it will not do this by simply reading hard one time, ...


But I mean it might be more effective to read hard many times.
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by Monadology »

Kirby wrote:Well, I guess that could be the case, but if that's the only reasoning there is, I don't think this method of study is for me.


Of course not. This was never about what method of study is for you, it was about whether the method of study you prefer is for other people :razz:

I can't really expect to understand it if the rationale is that it "works for some people".


Well, no, not by itself. But if you go back and look at the description Marcus gave that should help explain WHY it "works for some people." It's more like a paint can than a screw. It doesn't matter how hard you press the paintbrush against the canvas if you want to paint a pattern on it. With a screw, the tighter the better it remains in place.

But I mean it might be more effective to read hard many times.


The brain does a lot of unconscious processing. Conscious effort does not necessarily correspond to the level of unconscious processing. In some people, it can actually discourage it. I know I am this way to an extent. If I focus on something past a certain level of intensity, I do not tend to learn very well.
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by Kirby »

Monadology wrote:...
The brain does a lot of unconscious processing. Conscious effort does not necessarily correspond to the level of unconscious processing. In some people, it can actually discourage it. I know I am this way to an extent. If I focus on something past a certain level of intensity, I do not tend to learn very well.


All I can really say is, "good luck" :)
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by Kirby »

Helel wrote:...

My view is that the most effective way is to mix the two approaches to train both the reading and the pattern recognition.


I don't think we can get very far in this discussion since the most any of us can bring to the table is speculation. Even if some of us have improved using a certain method, it is hard to say if it is due to that method or due to something else.

So I'm not sure if it's productive for me to continue to try to force my opinion.

I'm going to sign off of this discussion.
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by judicata »

Helel wrote:This is not only about go. It is about learning and study methods in general. There is a lot of literature on the subject.


Not to promote my own post, but yeah.
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Re: A question about goproblems.com

Post by hyperpape »

One interesting recent finding is that if you ask people to answer a question before telling them the information, they retain it better. This is what you'd expect if it was a problem that they can solve (solving an equation will reinforce it, as opposed to being told the answer), but it appears to work even when the learner doesn't have any real way of knowing the information.

Now that doesn't adjudicate between quickly trying to solve a few problems, vs. focusing for a long time on just a few, but it does say that you should -almost always- try to think things through before looking up answers. That's obvious with tsumego, but it might apply in several cases that you might not expect. Perhaps try treating joseki or fuseki study as problems: play a few stones, then try and think through responses before looking at book continuations. Ditto for professional games (hey...prokovich!)

I can't back up those ideas in the last paragraph with direct evidence, but they are at least suggested by some research.
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