84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

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Dusk Eagle
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #55, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . B . . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Preserve the territory on the bottom while attacking white and helping link-up my one-space jump on the left. As good as that all sounds, I have a bad feeling about this move - like it is not the correct way to play. Whether it is or not, it's the best move I can come up with, so I'm going with it.

As long as white's four stones don't get too strong, I don't think he'll be able to launch all that severe of an attack on my four black stones. I am definitely keeping an eye on them though.

I'm more confident of a player in normal-time games. These games make me search for the best move rather than just a working move, and that's when I realize all too clearly that I really don't have a clue what is best. Oh well.
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Laman »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #56, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . W O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i've considered two other moves here, M9 and K6. K6 is similar to L6 but it gives black more sente moves on the lower side. M9 attacks black four stones but i don't like the remaining cut at black M7. (M9 might be well the correct move here)

i chose this, as it should be partial sente against the lower side - there arise some complicated sequences after white M4
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Jedo »

I feel like m9 was the important move for both players in the last two moves.
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Sorry for my slowness these past few days, but my exams are now over (and I'm back home :tmbup: ) and so with them off of my mind, I should be able to get back to thinking about this game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #57, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure why he's so concerned about saving that one stone which I could have cut off. It wasn't worth anything and if I had cut it off it only would have made him stronger.

Anyway, his move does aim at bad aji, namely this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X 5 4 X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 2 1 X 8 X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 3 7 X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 9 X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I clearly cannot play as above.

So I thought about playing :b1::

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O 7 O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X 6 5 X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 3 2 X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 4 . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

He clearly cannot play the same as below. However, playing :b1: would induce :w2: in the following diagram, and there's some bad aji in the position I would rather not have.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, I thought about the simpler move of just falling back and preserving the connection. I think this would be an okay way for me to play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a b . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X B . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But then I decided, why not try to get the exchange of 'a' for 'b' first? It seems like that will be more beneficial to me than to him. Of course, he might not play 'b', but I don't think any of his resistance plays works. So, I've made a last-minute change to this move. Hopefully I'm making the right decision here :mrgreen: .
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Laman »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #58, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O W O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

there's not much to say about this move - the other connection L7 feels worse and other moves let black cut and divide my stones at M7. i am still not very satisfied with my position

Dusk Eagle:
no problem, i hope you were successful :)
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #59, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X B . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I had thought about him doing that too, and decided my peep could still be beneficial. Anyway, back to patching what was left behind. Now he'll turn and attack my group, and I'll run. We'll see how it goes.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Laman »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #60, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X W . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.
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hyperpape
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by hyperpape »

:shock:

This is voluntarily giving up the opportunity to attack with this group in favor of defending. And as a defense, it doesn't do much--just one eye. I'm not sure what it would take to convince me this was the right move.
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Kayres »

hyperpape wrote:
:shock:

This is voluntarily giving up the opportunity to attack with this group in favor of defending. And as a defense, it doesn't do much--just one eye. I'm not sure what it would take to convince me this was the right move.


the value of this move actually becomes clear if you consider it as reverse sente. b could play there in sente. Although i have my doubts because if b threatened to cut and w connected, b seems a bit too weak.

but i for myself explained it this way :D the move being a reverse sente play. why does he not explain it? very sad :( :D
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by explo »

Kayres wrote:
hyperpape wrote:
:shock:

This is voluntarily giving up the opportunity to attack with this group in favor of defending. And as a defense, it doesn't do much--just one eye. I'm not sure what it would take to convince me this was the right move.


the value of this move actually becomes clear if you consider it as reverse sente. b could play there in sente. Although i have my doubts because if b threatened to cut and w connected, b seems a bit too weak.

but i for myself explained it this way :D the move being a reverse sente play. why does he not explain it? very sad :( :D

Would it really be sente for black? Black is already extra strong at the bottom and the two stones are not cutting stones. As someone pointed earlier, a move around M9/M10 is key and both players have been ignoring it.
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Kayres »

hmm true, missed that. you could actually argue about that. but it would kind of stay in contradiction with what white has done here.
he spend one move to save his stone, so i guess it would hurt to give it up now.

but you got a point there. if w run instead of playing his last move,

1. b would never try to cut and gain those 2 stones

2. if b tried, white could have a second move outside and do tremendous damage to black's cutting stones

so.. hm.. difficult. maybe this move is "too solid"
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Magicwand »

for the observers only:
i will make the call
white answering was not a good move.
i have notice laman's style when i played him.
very very slow and careful and never aggresive.

this is a good example of him playing very slow and small move (timid).
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The greater the unknown"
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Aphelion
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Aphelion »

Imo when you have to spend 7 stones to secure one eye like that this early, something has gone really wrong...
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Jedo »

Yeah, I thought m10 would be the move for white here.
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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #61, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, I didn't expect that. I thought he would take a more active approach to attacking my stones.

Anyway, this is another case where I don't really know what is best.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . 1 . O 8 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . 9 . 3 2 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . B B . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O O B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . O B . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Something like this feels like it will be hard for me. I don't think it's unthinkable to sacrifice the :bc: stones, but to let white attack them on a large scale feels bad to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #61, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move could be okay too, but it's farther to run to safety and it doesn't feel like it's all that severe or beneficial an attack on white's stones. I'd rather save an attack for later than waste it now.

So, I chose the move I did, not because I think it's amazing or anything, but because I think it's the best way to "make a fist" before doing anything else.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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