Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

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Chew Terr
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Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Post by Chew Terr »

No worries. Have a productive few days, and I look forwards to continuing the game with your return!
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Post by EdLee »

Chew Terr wrote:I was originally going to hane underneath, but then I got greedy. Given my stone at :bs:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O 8 . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . # .
$$ | . . . X . . .[/go]
Chew Terr's outside hane :b18: and his reasoning about :bs: are right on the money. :)

However, in his variation, his :b3: atari is a common misunderstanding:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . .
$$ | . . . X 2 4 .
$$ | . . . O 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
The correct atari for B is the other way (same as :w32: in my #103 game with topazg):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . 5 4 . .
$$ | . . . X 2 3 .
$$ | . . . O 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
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Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Post by Loons »

Hey Chew;
Where for Joaz if you had simply nobi-d upwards ? I'm sure I've been told that when strong locally, extending from attachments is often good.

(NB I am not really endorsing anything here, just curious)
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Post by EdLee »

Loons,
Loons wrote:Where for Joaz if you had simply nobi-d upwards ? I'm sure I've been told that when strong locally, extending from attachments is often good.
Yes, Ishida also mentioned the nobi up when B is strong locally. :)
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Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Post by Loons »

Is black not strong locally ?
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Post by EdLee »

Loons,
Loons wrote:Is black not strong locally ?
I think B is quite strong locally. :)
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Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I'm back.

That reply is by far the most aggressive.
Most people either choose this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . B W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

...in which black concedes running room to white while taking sure but modest territory. The reducing stones are always a concern for white, and he usually spends a move to connect them to something midway through the game.

The solidly aggressive extension is sometimes played:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . b b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b X B . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

...in which black concedes both some eastward running room to white, and some westward invasion, in return for a solid position. Black always takes 'a' and usually something around 'b'.

But the upper hane is notable in that it blocks both an immediate run eastward, and any play underneath. The former is obvious. The latter looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...in which black has solid territory and white has zilch.

So at this point, I'm outside my comfort zone and relying on a very fuzzy memory. :scratch: White has several options:
1) The outside wall
2) The ko
3) tenuki

The outside wall looks like this: ( as noted before, it is good to have the favorable ladder - shown here with the blue arrow. )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 7 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . W X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ { AR G13 K10 }[/go]

Or the outside wall looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . a . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . W X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

The important thing for me is to be able to suppress the moyo and not have to come back an d protect 'a' in certain gote. To that extent, both of the previous diagrams work for me. Whether I end in gote or not is not clear, as getting to the corner is big.

The ko looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 4 W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


It is not at all clear who does better in a ko.

My current preferrence is for the wall. I have to think about it a bit more.
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Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Post by Chew Terr »

Loons:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I feel like he would have done some of that light dodgy business if I gave him more space to. He might, still, but it seems harder on the board this way. This is kind of hard to respond to (the best I seem to have is 'a', because against many moves, black can just sacrifice one stone and jump out with the other for a successful reduction.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
If you atari my last move, I extend.
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Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Observers:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 4 O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 3 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The only question in my mind, really, was whether 24 should be above or below the two stones. If this is safe, this seems best, as it doesn't grant the atari and the aji that comes with. As I can't seem to read anything too bad, I'm going with this. White could play more aggressively to break into my left side, by forcing me to capture 23, but his resulting stones will all be weak and potentially heavy. I feel like I can be content with this unless I'm missing something huge.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Post by EdLee »

Since B is strong locally, the :b20: atari is OK, but the other way (B atari at :w21: instead) is still better:
see also :w32: and :w34: here: www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... 3&start=80

Because W can do better than Chew's variation --
W can close B and now the aji in this corner is not good for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . 1 8 . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 X O 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 O X . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Compare:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . 3 2 . .
$$ | . . . X O 1 .
$$ | . . . O X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
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Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I accept the trigger, and raise you a sacrifice stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

No, I have no pretentions of living down there. But the aji is well worth it.

More later...
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Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

To observers: ( BTW, there is lots of good stuff for beginners in here)
To put things in perspective: remember that a few moves back I was faced with a burgeoning black left side, and a my own thinness up top. To remedy both of those problems simultaneously, I threatened to invade the left, assuming that I could either get an invasion or an outside wall. MHO made the most aggressive possible reply, denying any chance of an invasion, so I'm going for the wall. Its approximate future location is indicated by the triangles.
Not only does a wall hold him back on the left, but I don't have to make small gote moves up top, for once the wall is in place, the two circled stones are no longer thin, but function as extensions off of the wall.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . W . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . T . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X T . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X T . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So the issue for me is how to construct that wall.

Note to beginners:
As a general rule, a wall is considered to be worth about 2.5 to 3 points per stone. This value varies widely depending upon circumstances. So if I sacrifice a stone, or even two, and my wall gets one stone longer as a result, it is a net profit for me.
The general idea is that the three stones will die, but the the black stones surrounding them are not themselves clearly alive yet, and they can be threatened by white stones crowding them from the east. That means that in some instances the play of those crowding stones will be atari, and therefore sente.


The immediate threat, of course is the double atari at 'a', and the escape at 'b'. Not surprisingly, those are his two best options.

Note to beginners:
There is a proverb that "The opponent's best play is my best play". Sometimes, an easy way to cause trouble for your opponent is to figure out where he would want to play, and then play there yourself.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . W . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's look at one possible black response:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . W . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White 4 starts to assemble the pieces of wall, and is more aggresive than it looks.
Because of the aji of the three sacrifice stones, taking the corner is big:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 8 . O . . . W . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 6 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

( BTW, note how bulky and clumpy the black stones are becoming )

One possible continuation is like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 9 @ 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O . O . . . W . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 8 7 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 3 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another is like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O 2 O . . . W . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Note to beginners:
As mentioned above, the idea of the sacrifice is to threaten the surrounding stones, and gain while doing so. The prior three diagrams illustrate this. White builds a wall and takes territory, while black is backpedaling. The three sacrifice stones threaten to assist in the kill.


My current guess at black's best(?) result is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 1 X O . O . . . W . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It is all sente for white. And black will still have to fill one more point of his territory in gote sometime in yose.

----

That was one black response. Let's look at the other:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . W . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White 2 threatns to run, so 3 is forced. White 4 is sente.

Note to beginners:
You may recognize this as a variation of the belly tesuji. ( See http://senseis.xmp.net/?BellyAttachmentTesuji )


Wite 6 threatens the previously shown mischief in the corner; 7 defends; 8 reinstates the threat.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 O . . . W . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 8 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 O . . . W . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 9 8 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 5 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Note to beginners:
Observe how the three doomed stones still play a role. The surrounding black stones repeatedly find themselves in danger, partly due to the threat of the 'dead' stones.
Also, note the clumpy shpe of the black stones.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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jts
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Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Post by jts »

@Joaz:
How consistent is the 2.5-3 pts per stone rule? I had heard that, but I assumed it applied to walls on the 3rd or 4th line. A wall on the 6th line must be worth less, right?

I'm also curious as to how you would work things like extensions into that. Presumably a wall that already has a good extension, or that completes a moyo, is worth more, but do you have any sense of how much more?
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Unfortunately, both players do not realize the problem started with the :b20: atari.
In fact, much of the analysis in Post #88 shows the issues stemming from it.
IMO, the evaluation of the situation should start with this sequence instead
(and it'd be nice for beginners to be aware of the differences between the two ataris) --
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . 3 2 . .
$$ | . . . X O 1 .
$$ | . . . O X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
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