the willow way

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:26 pm

Ooops, I didn't actually look carefully and thought it was a 2-space as the 3 space is so rare. Then I suppose reinforcing is more acceptable but my style would still be o3.

Charles Matthews · Post by **Charles Matthews** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:00 am

Uberdude wrote:If white did tenuki rather than make the 2 space jump then yes I could see the point that that wall of 3 is lighter and more useful as some outside thickness kikashi than the scraggle of stones you'd get from the breakthrough lines and then playing tenuki.

Yup, that's what I meant.

One thing that I notice, having spent a dozen years out of serious go, is that the terminological discussions don't seem to have improved much. In contrast with general understanding of the game, which, to judge by game records posted here, has improved, presumably because there is so much server go to watch and participate in.

The comment that set this off was not about the nature of "heaviness", but about the nature of "then it gets complicated" as a piece of positional judgement. Both of the breakthrough and the reduction-then-tenuki lines here are potentially more complex than the game. The "instructional point" about the latter is well known; as I said, the instructional point about the former, while more contextual, less so.

Anyway, seems to be a good thread.

Charles Matthews · Post by **Charles Matthews** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:06 am

Charles Matthews wrote:
Uberdude wrote:If white did tenuki rather than make the 2 space jump then yes I could see the point that that wall of 3 is lighter and more useful as some outside thickness kikashi than the scraggle of stones you'd get from the breakthrough lines and then playing tenuki.

Yup, that's what I meant.

One thing that I notice, having spent a dozen years out of serious go, is that the terminological discussions don't seem to have improved much. In contrast with general understanding of the game, which, to judge by game records posted here, has improved, presumably because there is so much server go to watch and participate in.

The comment that set this off was not about the nature of "heaviness", but about the nature of "then it gets complicated" as a piece of positional judgement. Both of the breakthrough and the reduction-then-tenuki lines here are potentially more complex than the game. The "instructional point" about the latter is well known; as I said, the instructional point about the former, while more contextual, less so.

Anyway, seems to be a good thread. I suppose Black should have played the ''warikomi'' rather than the one-point jump along the side.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:24 pm

Charles Matthews wrote:Anyway, seems to be a good thread. I suppose Black should have played the ''warikomi'' rather than the one-point jump along the side.

I've found it quite interesting and illuminating. I do feel at times like there is a lot of support and discussion surrounding players down to, say, 4-5k on here, and following that it kind of dries up. Part of this may be that players tend to start hitting walls in their previously speedy advancement more often and for longer at that point. Another part of this, I'm sure, is that there are fewer people who feel able to contribute, but that doesn't mean that there aren't interesting questions to discuss.

tentano · Post by **tentano** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:28 pm

Obviously, the solution is for everyone who's stuck mid-SDK to come up to 5d. Then we can talk about the interesting stuff.

I'm working on it, give it a year or two...

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:50 pm

tentano wrote:Obviously, the solution is for everyone who's stuck mid-SDK to come up to 5d. Then we can talk about the interesting stuff.

I'm working on it, give it a year or two...

There's plenty of interesting stuff to discuss at that level, and at weaker levels too. I just mean that it already tends to get brought up relatively frequently, whereas some more subtle distinctions don't get discussed as much.

tentano · Post by **tentano** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:12 pm

I just can't even see if anyone might have been wrong in this discussion. I simply don't have the ability to judge that.

The sheer depth of this game still has an almost magical quality for me.

I really want to be able to understand more, and then share it down to whoever doesn't get it yet in neat bite-sized lumps which are easy to digest. I realize I already do this, but I want to do it from a higher perch, so I can help people up a little higher than I can now.

More than that, though, I want to be able to add to what is commonly understood, not just by repeating what others said, but by propagating things which I know, but which nobody else is talking about. All too often I feel like an interactive FAQ, passing on what was passed on to me. This is far from worthless, but it just doesn't satisfy my ambition.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:40 pm

tentano wrote:I just can't even see if anyone might have been wrong in this discussion. I simply don't have the ability to judge that.

The sheer depth of this game still has an almost magical quality for me.

I really want to be able to understand more, and then share it down to whoever doesn't get it yet in neat bite-sized lumps which are easy to digest. I realize I already do this, but I want to do it from a higher perch, so I can help people up a little higher than I can now.

More than that, though, I want to be able to add to what is commonly understood, not just by repeating what others said, but by propagating things which I know, but which nobody else is talking about. All too often I feel like an interactive FAQ, passing on what was passed on to me. This is far from worthless, but it just doesn't satisfy my ambition.

I'm not entirely sure if you're referring to the specific game being discussed, or go in general.

At least as far as specific games go, post them. Ask questions: At point X, I wasn't sure if this move was right or not, is it? In any game, there are numerous points where the action takes a bit of a pause, and it's time to re-evaluate the board. These are also good points for discussion.

In general, though, I recommend teaching what you know, and being honest about what you don't know, or are unsure of. I think, as one gets stronger, proscriptions become much more qualified. At first it's do X or don't do Y, but it's more nuanced, and carrying that nuance over is difficult. Every situation is to some degree unique. Above, for example, you can see the 2 vs 3 space high pincer is somewhat relevant, even though they seems fairly similar at a first glance. I firmly believe that everyone has an obligation to pass on the knowledge they have received, to attempt to bring others up to their level, just as they were brought up to theirs and continue to be taught through the aid of others. I think, apart from the FAQ-type answers you've mentioned, there is a huge scope for passing on your judgement of situations, which will continue to improve as you get stronger. I remember not that long ago looking at the simplest of joseki that I learned when I was 20 kyu and realizing that I knew nothing about it, because there are all sorts of aji in the position, and complex variations that are hidden beneath the surface, some viable and some not depending on the circumstances and the whim of the players.

In some sense, unless you are playing at the highest level, people will not consider your innovations too closely, as they haven't really been tested against the best. Regardless, the spirit of experimentation and innovation is vital to keep your go dynamic, alive, and growing. Getting games with that spirit commented is also important, so you can see what others think of how you handled a position, and if there is a clear refutation or not. More than anything, your is not a textbook lookup, it's an expression of your will, desire, and state of mind. Just relax, play what seems fun, and make it up as you go. Then you can BS about the game after, which is just as fun.

tentano · Post by **tentano** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:18 am

Well, I'm talking about go in general I suppose. It just shows up in this particular discussion, too.

I'm pretty sure that unless I play at a very high level, I can't innovate. There's too much I cannot consider, which will most likely invalidate anything unusual I come up with.

Just like with science, you can't push out the boundaries unless you're educated up to those boundaries.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:07 pm

As a followup to my earlier post about declaring myself shodan (http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=179709#p179709) I entered the NOVA Chinese New Year tournament this weekend at that rank. I went 2-2 and won 2nd in my band on tiebreaks, out of 5 or so 1-dan participants. As a result, I feel somewhat vindicated in pushing myself.

I'm including a couple of the games as far as I remember them clearly below.

This first game was a horrible loss. The person I played was an older chinese man who didn't speak English and entered at 1 dan in his first tournament. I suspect he was stronger than this and may have based his ranks on a rank in China, as he seemed to cruise to victory in the section 4-0. I remember throughout the game that his shape seemed awkward at times, but I never felt I could mount an effective attack against any of his stones.

This second game I feel I won through a bit of a swindle, as I started a ko in the lower right for that group once it was cut off, but had I won the ko, I'm not sure I could have made life for the group. so I was lucky when my opponent ignored a large threat to kill about 20 points worth of stones in the center in order to finish the ko.

My other two games, in the first game, I took all four corners after playing the mini-chinese as black, and had a solid moyo covering a quarter of the board, but threw away the game when instead of consolidating it, I traded and didn't get nearly enough in the trade. The third game was a 3-stone handicap game against a 3-kyu, where I split black into many small groups early on, killed one, and then sacrificed a weak group in a corner to take a gigantic central moyo. The game was decided when my opponent tried to reduce it and went in a bit too deep, so I killed most of the reducing stones and won a semeai to keep them dead later by one liberty.

I do feel, though, that my games were not high quality games. In a sense, I wasn't playing up to myself. I was making mistakes by being too lazy to read, or to count, for example, and almost got bitten by it several times. I suppose that this means I still have room for improvement, though.

Elom · Post by **Elom** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:36 am

Hi, I'm a little weaker than you, but I have a few questions:

w12 , w14, is R5 worse/too aggressive?

w22 , a little low?

w28 , is C10 possible?

w40 , J14 is instictive for me.

w42 , instinct also says "no", maybe if K15 instead, white can use a ladder to reduce the right side.

w46 , w48 does it help black?

w48 , L3 instinct

b49 , now black can use the aji.

w56 , other way?

w60 , seems like aji-keshi. H5 is instinctive.

w66 , E10?

w70 , Q12 instinctive move.

I'm not sure if you ever fattened the meat in thr first place, so could never attack. Meanwhile, black was allowed to, like on w70.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:37 am

I assume these are for the first game in order.

Elom wrote:Hi, I'm a little weaker than you, but I have a few questions:

w12 , w14, is R5 worse/too aggressive?

Black can just take the 3-3 point and leave white looking a bit silly.

w22 , a little low?

Yeah, the suggestion I received was to stand up at P16 and then one space jump to N16 when black responds.

w28 , is C10 possible?

If I were to play on the left, I would have wanted to respond with the keima instead of the one-space jump originally, I think. On the left, if I were to play around there, it would be better to pincer more tightly as well. It's maybe a bit dubious because of black's strength in the lower left, though?

w40 , J14 is instictive for me.

I was trying to fix the cutting aji in sente, but wasn't entirely satisfied with my move either. Discussing the game afterwards, another player suggested leaning with D12 as the initial invasion response. My thrust was to make black heavy, but I'm not sure it was good. J14 makes me concerned that black will build side strength by getting those two stones running, and I didn't want to make them heavy.

w42 , instinct also says "no", maybe if K15 instead, white can use a ladder to reduce the right side.

K15? I don't see white's position as any better after black K14. The right side is already low down there, and white still has the shoulder hit to keep it low.

w46 , w48 does it help black?

I read the cut at J18 as white's privelege, as it gets really complicated if black tries to block and white recuts.

w48 , L3 instinct

What does white do after black breaks his shape? This seems to help black to break out or live on the side. If I were to play otherwise, maybe cutting.

b49 , now black can use the aji.

In retrospect, I think for :w52, maybe extending to the right instead, the start of a bamboo joint.

w56 , other way?

Which other way? This is also a threat to connect under.

w60 , seems like aji-keshi. H5 is instinctive.

Isn't this strengthening the group you want to attack? There's also still aji with the stones around M4 that I don't want to activate.

w66 , E10?

I'm not sure. It's clear that white's in a poor position by this point.

w70 , Q12 instinctive move.

Yeah, probably better. I thought :w70 would be sente at the time.

I'm not sure if you ever fattened the meat in thr first place, so could never attack. Meanwhile, black was allowed to, like on w70.

I'm not sure what you mean by "fattened the meat"?

Elom · Post by **Elom** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:22 pm

Thanks for answering my questioms! I'm afraid that at the time of writimg, had been in a small hurry, so some of the questions weren't clear.

I just added them to the sgf (only a few notes)

ps: There is a chinese proverb that says "Fatten the animal before the slaughter".
In other words, make groups heavy before attacking. I just thought that you might have found it hard to attack because black groups were unasdailable, and that could have been because white missed chances to maje black heavy. Just brainstorming with no idea

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:59 am

This is a recent game I played on DGS where I should have lost after a few slow late-endgame moves, and ended up lucking out by turning a corner into seki. It was quite close otherwise, so I'm including it below. I've added some comments of my own, but would appreciate any comments or suggestions.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:06 am

Just a few quick comments:

- I'm not sure g15 was good, how about o4?
- Don't like s9 as it makes black stronger. In the normal Chinese when this happens black already has q14 so there was not so much chance to come in the right side so you don't mind making that area stronger, not you do. o5 instead?
- p7 needed?
- k16 was poor, if o17 harder for white.
- s16 wrong order, r14 could o18 turn and white will have to live in gote (yeah you have clamp but that's small).
- c11 kick?
- e5 soft
- d9????? maybe reduce now, or f16.
- b8 can he tenuki?

Life In 19x19

the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way

Re: the willow way