Page 6 of 16
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:06 am
by speedchase
deja wrote:No, absolutely not! I don't use KGS because of the "let them eat cake, zero obligation" attitude expressed in words and actions by WMS. I reserve and always will reserve my gratitude to individuals who recognize the value of, respect for, and obligations to a community of users that are dependent on the technology they've introduced.
What obligations? The ones you made up? Why are the obligated, besides just because you said so.
deja wrote:There are other free alternatives out there from people who truly appreciate their users, are not condescending to them, who also maintain their servers at odd hours of the night, and who respond to user emails without a "like it or leave it" attitude.
Ok, then use those, but don't whine at the people who put thousands of hours of free work into something, and then get frustrated when people whine incessantly.
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:16 am
by Bantari
deja wrote:Bantari wrote:deja wrote:Then don't VOLUNTEER to do this or that. We don't become your gracious subjects simply because you've created something. And we don't owe you anything either, including gratitude.
Yes you do.
In Go, as in real life - if somebody works hard to give you something for free, something that you want very much, the appropriate response is 'Thank you, Sir!' and gratitude. Or didn't your momma teach you that?
The creator of a tool needs the community to use it just as much as the community needs the toy - but the relationship is NOT equal. One side works hard so the other side gets to have fun and play. I have no clue where you got the attitude that that when somebody creates something, for free, for you - they also need to bow down and kiss your feet or something. You seriously need to get over yourself, dude.
As always, Bantari, you miss the point... see above^^
I see above, and still nothing... maybe you need to work on delivery.
You write that you use other free services and you are grateful. So? In previous post you said the oposite. From this post it seems you have a gripe with KGS in particular, not in general with services offered for free. You need to get your issues straight, dude. And stop whining. Really.
I know, I know...
Whatever happened, KGS hur your feelings, really really bad, awful ugly KGS, bad puppy! You will hate it forever and ever and never use it again - WE GET IT!
This is your personal choice, and personal whine, and if you wish to publicly display it like that - this is your choice too, I have no problem with that.
But when you say that I would OWE YOU anything just because I give you something for free - you are full of it! And this is my main problem with your posts.
Other than this - whine away, dude. Whine away.
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:17 am
by deja
The so-called whining began with the following and I responded.
Mike Novack wrote:kaseki wrote: but my perspective is that once one takes responsibility for something relatively public and highly popular, even if privately owned, maintenance is an ownership tax that one has a duty to pay.
However all should note:
I am a retired senior systems analyst, many decades in the cypher mines and perhaps 300,000 lines of code in my day. It is precisely attitudes like this which discourage me from volunteering much with free software projects.
If we volunteer to do this or that, we do
not thereby become your slaves. We do
not owe you anything.
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:18 am
by Redundant
Bantari wrote:I see above, and still nothing... maybe you need to work on delivery.
You write that you use other free services and you are grateful. So? In previous post you said the oposite. From this post it seems you have a gripe with KGS in particular, not in general with services offered for free. You need to get your issues straight, dude. And stop whining. Really.
I know, I know...
Whatever happened, KGS hur your feelings, really really bad, awful ugly KGS, bad puppy! You will hate it forever and ever and never use it again - WE GET IT!
This is your personal choice, and personal whine, and if you wish to publicly display it like that - this is your choice too, I have no problem with that.
But when you say that I would OWE YOU anything just because I give you something for free - you are full of it! And this is my main problem with your posts.
Other than this - whine away, dude. Whine away.
Dude. Chill out.
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:19 am
by deja
Bantari wrote:I see above, and still nothing...
Why am I not surprised.
For the record. I've never been banned from KGS, never received a warning from a KGS admin, never witnessed what I would deem as Admin abuse on KGS, and never had a bad experience on KGS in any fashion. In fact, all of my game playing on KGS has been extremely pleasant. So obviously my reasons for choosing to play elsewhere have nothing to do with KGS. So given what I've said, is there any mystery as to why I've chosen to play elsewhere?
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:25 pm
by speedchase
deja wrote: So given what I've said, is there any mystery as to why I've chosen to play elsewhere?
umm.. yes
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:33 pm
by deja
speedchase wrote:deja wrote: So given what I've said, is there any mystery as to why I've chosen to play elsewhere?
umm.. yes
deja wrote:I don't use KGS because of the "let them eat cake, zero obligation" attitude expressed in words and actions by WMS. I reserve and always will reserve my gratitude to individuals who recognize the value of, respect for, and obligations to a community of users that are dependent on the technology they've introduced.
There are other free alternatives out there from people who truly appreciate their users, are not condescending to them, who also maintain their servers at odd hours of the night, and who respond to user emails without a "like it or leave it" attitude. I express my gratitude to these folks and support them, living just wonderfully without KGS.
I really wish more people would give that a try.
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:37 pm
by speedchase
You do realize that He doesn't have an obligation to you, right? And that admins are cranky about it because people whine a lot?
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:40 pm
by Javaness2
Well it's up to him, ultimately, where Deja plays is of little importance to the future of KGS.
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:41 pm
by deja
speedchase wrote:You do realize that He doesn't have an obligation to you, right? And that admins are cranky about it because people whine a lot?
deja wrote:I don't use KGS because of the "let them eat cake, zero obligation" attitude expressed in words and actions by WMS. I reserve and always will reserve my gratitude to individuals who recognize the value of, respect for, and obligations to a community of users that are dependent on the technology they've introduced.
This is becoming an Abbott and Costello who's on first routine....
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:06 pm
by uPWarrior
I would like to add that I understand deja and I've decided to do the same.
I've never had any issue with wms or any KGS admin in particular, but I decided I don't want to support them given the way they interact with the community and the way they treat their users.
It alls boils down to the fact that I don't want to use a server in which the creator puts his own interests above those of the community and rules as the sole dictator.
Is this of importance to the future of KGS? I definitely think so, wms and the admins participating in this topic seem to think otherwise.
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 3:23 pm
by BigDoug
Hello,
uPWarrior wrote:It alls boils down to the fact that I don't want to use a server in which the creator puts his own interests above those of the community and rules as the sole dictator.
Is this of importance to the future of KGS? I definitely think so, wms and the admins participating in this topic seem to think otherwise.
One of the benefits of Life in 19x19 is that we get to hear perspectives of those who we wouldn't ordinarily meet in real life. Even if Deja and I disagree, I'm very interested to understand his point of view.
I'm also interested in the references to wms putting his interests above those of the community (which I understand to mean the people who play on KGS).
When I check the KGS server stats, there are usually about 60-80,000 active accounts. If we allow for some multiple accounts, let's assume that there are 30,000 active players on KGS. Who should wms speak with to represent the wishes and priorities of these 30,000 people? Which person or persons can accurately represent the overall KGS player community?
This is not intended to be a rhetorial, point-scoring question. I'm genuinely interested to know how wms can interact with the community in order to better understand what they want. The KGS section of Life in 19x19 is a forum, but the active participants appear to be roughly 50-200. How does wms understand the perspective of the 30,000 KGS player community?
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 3:39 pm
by uPWarrior
I'm not saying that kgs is not a good server to play on or that wms did a bad job, the numbers clearly show otherwise. It is a great server to play on.
However, it is clear that he is not willing to go the next mile and allow others to make kgs something even better. Some people have even gone to the trouble of creating alternative versions of the KGS client that fixed or improved some small details that wms hasn't addressed for years. In all seriousness, the sound problem is just plain ridiculous and shows how dead the kgs client really is: Give me the source code and I will fix it myself in one week, and I don't even know anything about the specific issue.
I would rather play on a server with less players but with vibrant developers that listen to the players and do active development, even if currently subpar by kgs standards, than on kgs right now. We all make our choices, right?
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:10 pm
by BigDoug
Hello,
uPWarrior wrote:However, it is clear that he is not willing to go the next mile and allow others to make kgs something even better. Some people have even gone to the trouble of creating alternative versions of the KGS client that fixed or improved some small details that wms hasn't addressed for years.
Yes, this is a fair point.
A site with multiple developers has some advantages, with faster fixes of small, stand-alone bugs being one of them.
Equally, multiple developer environments create problems as well. In this specific case, wms has ruled out multiple developers because he enjoys building stuff, not managing people.
As a project manager, I can understand both perspectives. Both have advantages and disadvantages. This isn't a right or wrong decision. It's a matter of priorities and personal preferences.
If you're going to leave KGS because you don't like wms' decision to retain the sole development role, that's cool. I understand it. We're sorry to lose you as a participant, but wish you all the best in finding a go server which better meets your expectations. As you said, it's a free world and you get to choose what's best for you.
Re: The future of KGS
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 5:20 pm
by palapiku
I can't play on KGS because stone sounds are broken (yes, I have tried all the suggested methods of fixing this). They are broken despite the fact that someone has already written a patch to the KGS client long time ago. Just like deja, where I play is "of little importance to the future of KGS", but it seems pretty obvious that when essential maintenance is not being done people are eventually going to have to leave.
To reiterate my point, people are not going to leave in droves because they are not happy with wms's management style. But they will leave if the server is falling apart.