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Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:00 pm
by Bantari
SmoothOper wrote:tapir wrote: " also known as subscription to some fashionable whole board sequence,
If you don't understand any Fuseki, you might be inclined to follow fads that you don't understand, thus demonstrating your ignorance of the finer points in whole board development, and joseki selection, and make statements like, "Knowledge of Fuseki are just fads". I personally don't jump on the Fuseki band wagon, and I kind of wish people wouldn't play, Nirensei quite so much, though I get pretty comfortable playing against it.
What's wrong with Nirensei now?!?
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:44 pm
by tchan001
His statement above suggests that the Nirensei doesn't allow him to demonstrate his knowledge of the finer points in whole board development, and joseki selection.
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:35 am
by tapir
SmoothOper wrote:thus demonstrating your ignorance of the finer points in whole board development, and joseki selection
I am puzzled. How can you achieve a better understanding of [sl=JosekiChoice]joseki choice[/sl], when you reject studying joseki to begin with?
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:03 am
by HermanHiddema
tapir wrote:SmoothOper wrote:thus demonstrating your ignorance of the finer points in whole board development, and joseki selection
I am puzzled. How can you achieve a better understanding of [sl=JosekiChoice]joseki choice[/sl], when you reject studying joseki to begin with?
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1863
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:57 am
by SmoothOper
tapir wrote:SmoothOper wrote:thus demonstrating your ignorance of the finer points in whole board development, and joseki selection
I am puzzled. How can you achieve a better understanding of [sl=JosekiChoice]joseki choice[/sl], when you reject studying joseki to begin with?
Each Fuseki requires some knowledge of certain joseki. You don't have to learn all joseki or all Fuseki.
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:39 am
by tchan001
SmoothOper wrote:tapir wrote:SmoothOper wrote:thus demonstrating your ignorance of the finer points in whole board development, and joseki selection
I am puzzled. How can you achieve a better understanding of [sl=JosekiChoice]joseki choice[/sl], when you reject studying joseki to begin with?
Each Fuseki requires some knowledge of certain joseki. You don't have to learn all joseki or all Fuseki.
Would the "knowledge of certain joseki" be considered the knowledge of a collection of basic josekis?
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:42 am
by SmoothOper
tchan001 wrote:Would the "knowledge of certain joseki" be considered the knowledge of a collection of basic josekis?
Sure for some Fuseki, you might need to know some joseki, they probably aren't in that 38 basic joseki book, though some books have special sections for Chinese Fuseki joseki or enclosure joseki since they are so popular, and since often's teacher was unwilling or unable to explain this to him, I would get a different teacher. Furthermore, when starting out most players won't encounter the correct joseki for that Fuseki anyway, so it isn't so important, as knowing things like when to pincher, when to build a moyo, when to take sente, when to invade, or reduce territory etc... Some of these concepts may imply certain joseki, but there isn't any reason a teacher couldn't teach them as necessary, instead of as a prerequisite to more advanced material. IMO, a teacher's more valuable asset would be explaining how to deal with common but difficult non-joseki situations that arise, out of a Fuseki.
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:04 am
by Boidhre
SmoothOper wrote:tapir wrote:SmoothOper wrote:thus demonstrating your ignorance of the finer points in whole board development, and joseki selection
I am puzzled. How can you achieve a better understanding of [sl=JosekiChoice]joseki choice[/sl], when you reject studying joseki to begin with?
Each Fuseki requires some knowledge of certain joseki. You don't have to learn all joseki or all Fuseki.
You realise it's a two player game and you don't always get to take Black yes?
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:12 am
by Bill Spight
If I play it, it's joseki.
In '76 I saw a go club in Kyoto and went in. I was told that there was a class in session with an 8 dan pro, which I could join. I did. In response to a question about playing joseki, he gave the above reply.
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:15 am
by Boidhre
Bill Spight wrote:If I play it, it's joseki.
In '76 I saw a go club in Kyoto and went in. I was told that there was a class in session with an 8 dan pro, which I could join. I did. In response to a question about playing joseki, he gave the above reply.
I wonder what he would have said as a 1d amateur.
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:22 am
by tchan001
Boidhre wrote:Bill Spight wrote:If I play it, it's joseki.
In '76 I saw a go club in Kyoto and went in. I was told that there was a class in session with an 8 dan pro, which I could join. I did. In response to a question about playing joseki, he gave the above reply.
I wonder what he would have said as a 1d amateur.
Probably that his 8dan pro teacher also told him the same thing when he was 1d amateur. lol
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:25 am
by SmoothOper
Boidhre wrote:
You realise it's a two player game and you don't always get to take Black yes?
Duh, what are you going to do if white doesn't plop down nirensei?
Resign?
In all seriousness, this is just another reason why Fuseki is more than a 5 move sequence in the beginning, though many people who are ignorant of the finer details of how a Fuseki works, may think there is no point in learning a Fuseki because they can't predict what the other person is going to do, or they have a preconceived notion of where their moyo is supposed to develop which doesn't happen, or need to learn all these unnecessary Joseki, all these assertions are based on ignorance.
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:32 am
by Boidhre
SmoothOper wrote:Boidhre wrote:
You realise it's a two player game and you don't always get to take Black yes?
Duh, what are you going to do if white doesn't plop down nirensei?
Resign?
In all seriousness, this is just another reason why Fuseki is more than a 5 move sequence in the beginning, though many people who are ignorant of the finer details of how a Fuseki works, may think there is no point in learning a Fuseki because they can't predict what the other person is going to do, or they have a preconceived notion of where their moyo is supposed to develop which doesn't happen, or need to learn all these unnecessary Joseki, all these assertions are based on ignorance.
None of my regular opponents play nirensei as white, they're mean.
My point is, if you're going to study fuseki, restricting your study only to the fuseki you play is going to be problematic when you get to higher levels.
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:16 am
by SmoothOper
Boidhre wrote:SmoothOper wrote:Boidhre wrote:
You realise it's a two player game and you don't always get to take Black yes?
Duh, what are you going to do if white doesn't plop down nirensei?
Resign?
In all seriousness, this is just another reason why Fuseki is more than a 5 move sequence in the beginning, though many people who are ignorant of the finer details of how a Fuseki works, may think there is no point in learning a Fuseki because they can't predict what the other person is going to do, or they have a preconceived notion of where their moyo is supposed to develop which doesn't happen, or need to learn all these unnecessary Joseki, all these assertions are based on ignorance.
None of my regular opponents play nirensei as white, they're mean.
My point is, if you're going to study fuseki, restricting your study only to the fuseki you play is going to be problematic when you get to higher levels.
I agree, however I may never have to consider a 3-5 vs. a 5-4, since I won't(in the near future) play either of those as white or black, however if a player is interested in a 3-5 opening they may want to consider the ramifications of a 5-4 or 3-4 in different configurations, these strategies may indeed depend on some very specific joseki knowledge, which may not be considered basic. In my or others cases, an approach move joseki may not be the appropriate response to any of these openings. The biggest problem I have is finding the players to hone these openings. I can study the takamoku, but I only play one once every 10 to 20 games, so working out the details for these openings is difficult. I think people who have more time to spend would switch Fuseki from time to time to get an idea about how they work, but you need to start somewhere, and many Fuseki ideas generalize pretty well, unlike joseki. For example shimari is a shimari and a moyo is a moyo, there are many ways build them, and they are likely to arise out of many Fuseki, for example both the 3-5 3-4 and 3-4 5-4 enclosures can be built multiple ways.
Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:19 am
by Bill Spight
Boidhre wrote:My point is, if you're going to study fuseki, restricting your study only to the fuseki you play is going to be problematic when you get to higher levels.
Restricting your study only to {fill in the blank} is problematic.