Shin Jinseo

[Lucian]

I saw in the past days several games between Shin Jinseo and Park Junghwan on WBaduk, it turned out they are part of a seven game series, the first session with three games was just concluded as per https://cyberoro.com/news/news_view.oro?num=527165. Probably the beautiful location helped the quality, the games look like a master class in the new style.

I would like to see similar series between Ke Jie and Park Junghwan / Shin Jinseo

For those interested, the games are already loaded on Mace site http://www.go4go.net/go/games/byplayer/1313.

[John Fairbairn]

, it turned out they are part of a seven game series,

It's a Super Match on Namhaedo Island (South Gyeongsang Prov.) which is popular both as a tourist centre and as a training camp for athletes. Game 3 was at the famous Sangju Silver Sand Beach. Not sure whether it's best of 7 or a full 7, but Sin Chin-seo is 3-0 up. The games are at a passable pace: 1.5 hours each plus 5x1m.

[Kirby]

From the linked article:

승패와 관계없이 7차례 모두 대결한다.

Win or lose, they’ll play all 7.

[silviu22]

After these 3 victories, Shin Jinseo's rating has reached a new high (3814). There was something about overturned board in the comments from that Korean page. Does anybody know what they were talking about? The google translation wasn't very good.

Did Park Junghwan get frustrated and overturned a board after one of the losses?

[Kirby]

Perhaps a comeback/game reversal? Just paste the Korean sentence you’re referring to here, and I’ll tell you what it says.

[silviu22]

Perhaps a comeback/game reversal? Just paste the Korean sentence you’re referring to here, and I’ll tell you what it says.

It was this comment by DuTum:
매 판 찰나의 실수로 좋은 바둑을 놓쳤다는 생각에
정말이지 판을 엎어버리고 싶은 심정이었을 겝니다.
그것도 정말 지기 싫은 상대였을 텐데요..

But I think he was talking about himself, how he ("DuTum") would have have been so frustrated that he would have overturned the board he is was in Park's place.

[Kirby]

Perhaps a comeback/game reversal? Just paste the Korean sentence you’re referring to here, and I’ll tell you what it says.

It was this comment by DuTum:
매 판 찰나의 실수로 좋은 바둑을 놓쳤다는 생각에
정말이지 판을 엎어버리고 싶은 심정이었을 겝니다.
그것도 정말 지기 싫은 상대였을 텐데요..

But I think he was talking about himself, how he ("DuTum") would have have been so frustrated that he would have overturned the board he is was in Park's place.

I don't know the context of this comment very well (I didn't see it in the linked article), but basically he's saying something like:

Every game, he makes a really small mistake, throwing away a good game of go - to the point where you'd feel like overturning/throwing up the board (out of frustration). And against an opponent you really hate losing to, too...

[silviu22]

Shin Jinseo is going to be very busy:

• Nov 2, 3 & 4: Samsung Cup final vs his nemesis Ke Jie
• Nov 6, 10 & 10: KBS cup final vs An Sungjoon
• Nov 14 & 16: game 4 & 5 of his 7-match series vs Park Junghwan (who will be hungry for revenge)

It seems unreasonable to have to play so many high stake games in such a sort time. I guess he got what he wished for...

[Uberdude]

Shin just won the final game of his 7 game match Vs Park Junghwan to make it a 7-0 sweep. He's truly left behind the situation of a year+ ago when he was beating everyone except bogeyman Park.

[silviu22]

Shin Jinseo's rating (2830) is now more than 100 points more than Ke Jie's (2727) after he Shin made Chunlan Cup's final and Ke Jie's loss to Tang Weixing in the semifinal. But I'm still not convinced Shin is stronger than Ke Jie.

[AloneAgainstAll]

You need to have extremely strong lack of faith in WHR rating system to have doubts that Shin Jinseo is stronger than Ke Jie. But if so, why you follow it so closely ?

Ok so lets see. Currently Shin Jinseo rating is 3830 while Ke Jie is 3727. This is difference of 103 points. But that does not say much unless you know how to interpret that into win chance of WHR system (and thats not same as real winning probability btw). But 103 points is less than 3% of difference(2,68% to be a little bit more precise). If WHR rating would work same as chess ELO (well, i know it does not, but lets assume for a while) - so lets take Kasparoc highest ELO which is 2851 i think.Lets substract 2,7% from it - it makes 2774 (about). For chess its significant difference, but for sure not domination. Weaker player might in few games do well against higher ranked one (although ofc, if they would play 40 games match, higher ranked should win more). Btw, what was Kramink rating when he beat Kasparov in WC match?

OK so lets see it from another point. Lets see year by year how Shin Jinseo was doing against Ke Jie:
2014 - 1-1
2015 - no games
2016 - no games
2017 - 1-1
2018 - 0-2
2019 - 1-3
2020 - 1-3

Total - 4-10

So it does not look good for Shin Jinseo. But that was only 14 games. And thats only games between two of them. If we would add Park Junghwan into account, then it would start to look completely different. And most important is that Shin Jinseo from 2021 looks much stronger than Shin from each year before. Steady constant rise. Opposite, Ke Jie looks like he is not improving much.

Shin Jinseo is doing awesomely good against pretty much all top players, except Ke Jie. That sometimes happen. When Robert Fisher was about to play his match of century against Boris Spassky, his personal record against him was very poor (no wins, few draws), but his ELO rating was 125 points higher (or sth like that, dont remember exactly). But after match, even if we count this stupid default, his record against Spassky was not bad anymore.

Silviu, have some faith in WHR! If you dont, then calculate ELO, should be pretty similar difference. I dont have doubts that Shin Jinseo is stronger. Wish they play some long match like Gu Li vs Lee Sedol, or better Shusaku vs Yuzo!

[dfan]

Currently Shin Jinseo rating is 3830 while Ke Jie is 3727. This is difference of 103 points. But that does not say much unless you know how to interpret that into win chance of WHR system (and thats not same as real winning probability btw). But 103 points is less than 3% of difference (2,68% to be a little bit more precise).

Comparing rating differences to ratings isn't meaningful for systems like Elo and WHR. They are effectively logarithms of raw skill ratings, so only the difference matters. A difference of 103 points corresponds to some particular (predicted) probability of winning. It doesn't matter whether the two players involved are 3830 and 3727 or 1830 and 1727. In fact the baseline of the rating system (how good a player with a rating of 0 is) is completely arbitrary.

[AloneAgainstAll]

Part of my post was joke but it seems it was poor one, sorry for that. I should wait till Shin Jinseo advantage will be same as Fischer over Spassky (125 points, so just a 22 points more) before Match of Century and then use that argument.

[Uberdude]

Iirc the expected win probability for goratings WHR for a rating difference is exactly the same as regular chess Elo, i.e. the scales are the same relative density even though offset so can't compare absolute numbers between them and the calculation model is different. https://wismuth.com/elo/calculator.html ... ting2=3727 says Shin Vs Ke 103 apart is 64-36.

[silviu22]

You need to have extremely strong lack of faith in WHR rating system to have doubts that Shin Jinseo is stronger than Ke Jie. But if so, why you follow it so closely ?

I believe Shin Jinseo has a bit of inferiority complex vs Ke Jie. I suspect he starts every other match expecting to win, but that he is anxious/unsure whenever he plays Ke Jie. He used to have the same problem with Park Junghwan, but he overcame that.

I suspect that if he played a blind game vs Ke Jie without knowing who the opponent is, Shin Jinseo might win more. I also believe that if they played more often (like in that 10 game match I saw someone mention) he would get over this complex. But they play so seldom that he can't quite get over his mental block.

And the reason I watch him so closely is because I am looking forward to getting confirmation from head-to-head results that Shin has really passed Ke Jie.