GT territory rule

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Re: GT territory rule

Post by jann »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:Isn't it exactly the perfect japonese rule you have in mind?
it's much easier to recognize something wrong (logical flaws or violating important principles) than talking about "perfect" rules.

You also seem to overestimate the extent of acceptable complexity of go rules. Even a single hack like pass stones or pass for ko is borderline, bigger and more (like 2-3 complicated inventions at the same time) are too much. And the more you use the more likely those lack a cohesive theory and are patches over patches.

Like if you do playout with pass stones, onesided dame is natural consequence. If you don't like that, you have a problem with the very logic behind pass stones - in that case no reason to do playout with them.
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

jann wrote: You also seem to overestimate the extent of acceptable complexity of go rules. Even a single hack like pass stones or pass for ko is borderline, bigger and more (like 2-3 complicated inventions at the same time) are too much. And the more you use the more likely those lack a cohesive theory and are patches over patches.

Like if you do playout with pass stones, onesided dame is natural consequence. If you don't like that, you have a problem with the very logic behind pass stones - in that case no reason to do playout with them.
I agree with you Jann and I am not satisfied by having both 3) and 4) points.
But here is a good news. When analysing points 3) and 4) it appears to me that if 3) is fullfilled then, 4) should (must?) be fullfilled.

=> now I propose simply:

A set of locations is a "controlled area" for a player if:
1) The inside border contains neither empty locations nor stones of the opponent.
2) The outside border contains neither empty locations nor stones of the player.
3) the set of locations can be entirely covered by a "two-eye formation" through an hypthetical play (see below) played only on the "controlled area", assuming the outside border independantly alive


That way, provided it works, not only it is not a complication, but it is a major simplification : instead of playing the hypothetical play on all the board you play it only on the potential "controlled area" which looks far more simple and simplier than many other hypothetical plays I know.
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by Pio2001 »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:Let's try with this wording:

A set of locations is a "controlled area" for a player if:
1) The inside border contains neither empty locations nor stones of the opponent.
2) The outside border contains neither empty locations nor stones of the player.
3) the set of locations can be entirely covered by a "two-eye formation" even if the opponent plays first in an alternation game using normal play and the "permanently prohibited" ko (see here after)

A "player's territory" is all the locations which are empty or occupied by an opponent stone, in a "player's controlled area".
Perfect. Now it makes sense :tmbup:
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Pio2001 wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:Let's try with this wording:

A set of locations is a "controlled area" for a player if:
1) The inside border contains neither empty locations nor stones of the opponent.
2) The outside border contains neither empty locations nor stones of the player.
3) the set of locations can be entirely covered by a "two-eye formation" even if the opponent plays first in an alternation game using normal play and the "permanently prohibited" ko (see here after)

A "player's territory" is all the locations which are empty or occupied by an opponent stone, in a "player's controlled area".
Perfect. Now it makes sense :tmbup:
Thank you Guillaume. OC I understand your comment concerns my defintion of "territory" because I just changed the point 3)
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by Cassandra »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:For the time being two positions are an issue for my "GT territory rule".

Firstly the following position I analysed in viewtopic.php?p=266754#p266754
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . O X X . O X |
$$ | X X O X . O X |
$$ | X X O X X O X |
$$ | O O O O O X X |
$$ | . O . . O X . |
$$ | O O . . O X X |
$$ | . O . . O X . |
$$ | . O . . O X X |
$$ -----------------[/go]
I concluded in "GT territory rule" that black has a territory in the upper right corner though a seki seems more appropriate.

And secondly the position found by Jann and showed in viewtopic.php?p=266868#p266868
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------+
$$ | O O O O O X O O . X . O O X X X |
$$ | O O O O . X O O O X O O O X . O |
$$ | O O O O O X O . O X O . O X O . |
$$ | O O O O . X O O O X O O O X X O |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X O O O X . . |
$$ +---------------------------------+
$$[/go]
Here "GT territory rule" concludes to territory though a seki seems more appropriate.

Two positions is already too many isn't?
That means that I missed something.
Maybe you missed "There is no territory in seki"? :D

Joking aside. To give you a suggestion before I reveal the solution to you (which might be different from the following that would work too):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------+
$$ | O O . X . O O |
$$ | O O . X . O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |[/go]
Black claims territory at the top.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------+
$$ | P P C X C P P |
$$ | P P C X C P P |
$$ | X X X X X X X |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |[/go]
8 x :wx: + 4 x :ec: = 8 x 2 + 4 x 1 = 16 + 4 = 20

-------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------+
$$ | O O 3 X 7 O O |
$$ | O O 1 X 5 O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | 2 4 6 8 . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------+
$$ | C C X X X C C |
$$ | C C X X X C C |
$$ | X X X X X X X |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | @ @ @ @ . . . |
$$ | Q Q . . . Q Q |
$$ | Q Q . . . Q Q |[/go]
8 x :ec: + 4 x :wt: + 8 x :ws: = 8 x 1 + 4 x 1 + 8 x 1 = 8 + 4 + 8 = 20
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by jann »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:instead of playing the hypothetical play on all the board you play it only on the potential "controlled area"
This basically reverts to LJRG by Pauli. I think LJRG is not bad, but it still has some theoretical weakness (hidden redundancy).
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

jann wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:instead of playing the hypothetical play on all the board you play it only on the potential "controlled area"
This basically reverts to LJRG by Pauli. I think LJRG is not bad, but it still has some theoretical weakness (hidden redundancy).
For sure some defintions are identical but the rules seem really different unless I do not have the right link OC. It seems that in this rule there are no confirmation phase and the normal play is different due to the handling of loops. It seems not that close to japanese traditional rule and I see easily positions which are handled differently in LJRG and in japanese traditional rule.
Surely time is needed to analyse my proposition but for the time being I can only wait for issues that could be discovered with specific positions.
Did you find already one Jann?
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by jann »

Sure, he also has a messy cycle rule hack (that is best forgotten), but the essence of his rules is the same (see #14 in his short text). LKRG might be a more correct name though (see also #2 from this post). OC, you also want to mess with combined moonshine...
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Here is my last updated version of my proposal.
BTW what is defined here is not the complete rule itself but only the confirmation phase, simply because I do not claim any change for normal play (in particular concerning loops I assume basic ko and NO RESULT game).
Similarly counted is not adressed here. As usual the score of a player is the sum
1) the prisonners in normal play
2) the number of the empty location in her territories
3) twice the number of opponent stones in her territories

Confirmation phase:

Preliminary definitions:

A "two-eye-formation" is a set of one or several groups of stones of the same player and exactly two empty intersections so that:
1) each of the groups of stones is adjacent to each of the two empty intersections,
2) each of the two empty intersections is adjacent only to the groups of stones.

The "inside border" of an area is all the locations in the area which are adjacent to a location not in the area

The "outside border" of an area is all the locations not in the area which are adjacent to a location in the area

A group of stones of a player is "pass-alive" if it keeps its alive status even if the player continues to pass whenever the opponent makes plays.

An area is "controlled" by a player if:
1) The inside border of this area contains neither empty locations nor stones of the opponent.
2) The outside border ot this area contains neither empty locations nor stones of the player.
3) the area can be entirely covered by a "two-eye formation" through an hypthetical play (see below) assuming the outside border being pass-alive

A "player's territory" is all the locations which are empty or occupied by an opponent stone, in a player's controlled area".


Confirmation phase procedure:
1) One player claims she "controls" a given area. This player is called the "attacker" and the other player is called the "defender".
2) If this area cannot be "controlled" because inside or outside border do not fulfilled the correponding conditions (see above) then the confirmation phase procedure return to 1) for another claim
3) Hypthetical plays take place : the objective of the attacker is to build a "two-eye formation" covering all the potential "controlled" area. The defender's obective is the opposite
4) If the attacker succeeds the territory associated to the "controlled" area is declared the "territory" of the attacker
5) confirmation phase procedure return to 1) for another claim

Definition:
A position is said to be "critical" if this position is reached by a defender's ko capture followed by an attacker's pass

Hypothetical play:
At the beginning of an hypothetical play there are no ko ban
The hypothetical play begins always by a defender move (a play or a pass) and then each player makes moves alternatively.
Normal play is used during hypothetical play except that all the "permanently prohibited kos" created (see below) have to be taken into account (the defender is not allowed to capture a ko which have been "permanently prohibited"
Three successive passes ends always an hypothetical play

Procedure to create "permanently prohibited ko":
As soon as a "critical position" is reached the attacker may (it is not mandatory) claim for creating a "permanently prohibited ko":
1) The attacker proves that she can either reach her objective or reach "critical positions" an infinite number of times
2) The attacker proves that the defender cannot make an infinite number of passes
3) If the defender agrees to point 1) and 2) then the game continues up to the following "critical position"
4) As soon as a new critical position is reached a "permanently prohibited ko" is automatically created for the ko capture made by the defender before the last pass
5) Then the game continue taking into account the "permanently prohibited ko" created and the attacker may later create another "permanently prohibited ko" using again the procedure above.


Comment1 : one consequence of point 2) of "two-eye-formation" is that the two empty intersections cannot be adjacent
Comment2 : point2 defining controlled area concerning outside border means that dame has been filled
Comment3 : point 3 defining controlled area : because the outside border is considered pass-alive you do not need to play a move on the board which is not on the potential controlled area. You can always replace this move by a pass (eventually allowing you to retake a local ko)
Comment4 : territory and its inside border are just the natural concept used by the players during all the game => claiming for a given controlled area is only natural
Comment5 : looking for a "two eye formation" corresponds basically to the work already done during game to verify that the player has really some points in a territory (no seki)
Comment6 : an hypothetical play starts always by the defender => if the attacker missed a teire move then the attacker cannot prove she as a territory.
Comment7 : in a "critical" position it is always defender to play
Comment8 on "permanently prohibited ko": it is a key point to handle potential loops. The idea is to recognize that some loops are advantageous to a player (the easiest example is the monshine life). J89 use pass-for-ko and J2003 ko-pass for that purpose but unfortunately side effects can be observed. As soon as an advantgeous loop has been recognise then a "permanently prohibited ko" allows to break the loop at the advantage of the corresponding player
Comment9 : in practice the two eye formation will never really build because the players will agree to the result far before the theoritical end of the hypothetical play.
Comment10 on Procedure to create "permanently prohibited ko": is the two players do not agree on point 1) and 2) even by using an another board for analysis then the referee will decide.
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by Cassandra »

Well done :tmbup:

I appreciate expecially the new section with comments at the end.

Just a tiny suggestion with regard to these:
You might want to add something like
"{n}"
to the legal text of your rules as a reference to
"Comment n:"
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Seeing no other comments on the basic ideas behind my proposed new confirmation phase I worked on the wording itself (which is not an easy task ;-) )
I corrected a lot of mistakes and modified various wording for clarification purpose.
I added also a lot of comments to explain the ideas behind the proposal.
Here is the new text:

Confirmation phase:

Preliminary definitions:

A "two-eye-formation" is a set of one or several groups of stones of the same player and exactly two empty intersections so that:
1) each of the groups of stones is adjacent to each of the two empty intersections1,
2) each of the two empty intersections is adjacent only to the groups of stones2.

The "inside border" of an area is all the intersections in the area which are adjacent to an intersection not in the area

The "outside border" of an area is all the intersections not in the area which are adjacent to an intersection in the area

A group of stones of a player is "pass-alive" if it keeps its alive status even if the player continues to pass whenever the opponent makes plays.

An area is "controlled" by a player if:
1) in the inside border you can find only stones of the player3.
2) in the outside border you can find only stones of the opponent4.
3) the area can be entirely covered by a "two-eye formation" through an hypthetical play (see below) assuming the outside border being pass-alive5

A "player's territory" is all the intersections which are empty or occupied by an opponent stone, in a player's controlled area6.

Confirmation phase procedure:
1) One player claims she "controls" a given area. This player is called the "defender" and the other player is called the "attacker"7
2) If this area cannot be "controlled" because inside or outside border do not fulfill the corresponding conditions (see above) then the confirmation phase procedure return to 1) for another claim
3) Hypthetical plays take place : the objective of the defender is to build a "two-eye formation" covering all the potential "controlled" area8. The attacker's objective is the opposite
4) If the defender succeeds the territory associated to the "controlled" area is declared the "territory" of the defender
5) confirmation phase procedure return to 1) for another claim

Definition:
A position is said to be "critical" if this position is reached after an attacker's ko capture followed by a defender's pass9.

Hypothetical play:
At the beginning of an hypothetical play there are no ko ban
The hypothetical play begins always by an attacker's move (a play or a pass) and then each player makes moves alternatively10.
Normal play rule is used during hypothetical play except that all the "permanently prohibited ko" created (see below) have to be taken into account (the attacker is not allowed to capture a ko which have been "permanently prohibited")11
Three successive passes end always an hypothetical play12

Procedure to create "permanently prohibited ko"13:
As soon as a "critical position" is reached the defender14 may (it is not mandatory) claim for creating a "permanently prohibited ko":
1) The defender proves that she can either reach her objective or reach "critical positions" an infinite number of times
2) The defender proves she is able to prevent the attacker to make an infinite number of passes
3) If the attacker agrees to point 1) and 2)15 then the hypothetical play continues up to the following "critical position"
4) As soon as a new critical position is reached a "permanently prohibited ko" is automatically created for the ko capture made by the attacker before the last pass
5) Then the hypothetical play continues taking into account the "permanently prohibited ko" created and the defender may later create another16 "permanently prohibited ko" using again the procedure above.


Comment 1: the idea is that each group of stones has (exactly) two liberties
Comment 2 : this point implies that the two empty intersections themselves cannot be adjacent
Comment 3 : the inside border might be empty if the concerned area is made of all the board. In that case the outside border will be also empty
Comment 4 : Because empty intersection are not allowed in the outside border, that means that all outside dame has been filled
Comment 5 : because the outside border is considered pass-alive you do not need to play a move on the board which is not on the potential controlled area. You can always replace this move by a pass (eventually allowing you to retake a local ko)
Comment 6 : territory and its inside border are just the common concepts used by the players during all the game. In this context, claiming for a given controlled area is only natural. This defintion shows that territory is closely related to two-eye-formation. As a consequence in a region where exists a commonly called "seki", no territory can exist and that explains that no point can be counted in a "seki".
Comment 7 : the defender try to defend her territory against the attacker who will play first
Comment 8 : looking for a "two eye formation" corresponds basically to the work already done during game to verify that the player has really some points in a territory (no seki). In practice the two eye formation will never really build because the players will agree to the result far before the theoritical end of the hypothetical play.
Comment 9 : in a "critical" position it is always defender to play
Comment 10 : an hypothetical play starts always by the attacker => if the defender missed a teire move (during normal play) then the defender will not be able to prove she as a territory => teire moves should be played during normal play
Comment 11 : this rule prevents the attacker to create a loop avoiding the defender to build her two-eye-formation
Comment 12 : because the hypothetical play is basically played under normal play three passes are necessary to allow each player to retake an unsettled ko. OC, as usual, agreement between players may also end an hypothetical play
Comment 13 : the "permanently prohibited ko" is the key point to handle potential loops. The idea is to recognize that some loops are advantageous to a player (the easiest example is the monshine life). J89 uses pass-for-ko for that purpose but unfortunately side effects can be observed. As soon as an advantgeous loop has been recognised then a "permanently prohibited ko" allows to break the loop.
Comment 14 : only the defender can claim for creating a "permanently prohibited ko". The attacker has no need to avoid the defender to play a loop because such loop means that the defender has not reached her objective of building effectively a two-eye formation
Comment 15 : if the two players do not agree on point 1) and 2) even by using an another board for analysis then the referee will decide
Comment 16 : as worded several "permanently prohibited ko" may exist at the same time. Further study may conclude that using only the last "permanently prohibited ko" created is enough.
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by Cassandra »

J89's CURRENT L&D example 18:
Nihon Kiin's J89 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------------
$$ | . O . X O X O . . . .
$$ | O X X X O X O O . . .
$$ | . X O O O X X O O . .
$$ | X X O O . O X X O , .
$$ | O O O . O X . X O . .
$$ | X X O O X . X X O . .
$$ | . X X O O X X O O . .
$$ | . . X X X O O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .[/go]
隅の黒七子は「死に石」、白二子は「活き石」。中の黒十三子も「セキ崩れ」で、「死に石」。
Translation into English:
"In the corner, the seven Black stones are 'dead stones', the two White stones are 'alive stones'. The thirteen Black stones in the centre are also 'dead stones', due to the 'collapse of the seki'."


Despite trying very hard, I was UNABLE to achieve this "desired" result by applying "GT territory rules".

Gérard, probably you may be so very kind to show me how your rules work here successfully (with regard to Black's groups, to be clear; i.e. "the entire corner is White territory")...
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Cassandra wrote:J89's CURRENT L&D example 18:
Nihon Kiin's J89 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------------
$$ | . O . X O X O . . . .
$$ | O X X X O X O O . . .
$$ | . X O O O X X O O . .
$$ | X X O O . O X X O , .
$$ | O O O . O X . X O . .
$$ | X X O O X . X X O . .
$$ | . X X O O X X O O . .
$$ | . . X X X O O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .[/go]
隅の黒七子は「死に石」、白二子は「活き石」。中の黒十三子も「セキ崩れ」で、「死に石」。
Translation into English:
"In the corner, the seven Black stones are 'dead stones', the two White stones are 'alive stones'. The thirteen Black stones in the centre are also 'dead stones', due to the 'collapse of the seki'."


Despite trying very hard, I was UNABLE to achieve this "desired" result by applying "GT territory rules".

Gérard, probably you may be so very kind to show me how your rules work here successfully (with regard to Black's groups, to be clear; i.e. "the entire corner is White territory")...
The answer is quite simple Thomas, the position you propose is quite different from example 18.

Let's consider example 18:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------------
$$ | . O . X O . O X X O .
$$ | O X X X O O X . X O .
$$ | . X O O O X . X X O .
$$ | X X O . O O X X O O .
$$ | O O O O O X O O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
In "GT territory rule" white claims for controlling all the corner by the sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass
$$ +----------------------
$$ | 1 5 3 X O . O X X O .
$$ | O X X X O O X . X O .
$$ | 4 X O O O X . X X O .
$$ | X X O . O O X X O O .
$$ | O O O O O X O O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass
$$ +----------------------
$$ | 6 O 9 X O 8 O X X O .
$$ | 7 X X X O O X . X O .
$$ | X X O O O X . X X O .
$$ | X X O . O O X X O O .
$$ | O O O O O X O O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
with the result expected.

BTW J89 does not give the "good" result due to the now famous loop with the double ko and the pass-for-ko.

If you wish me to show you how "GT territory rule" handles your new (difficult!) position tell me and I will explain in detail.
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by Cassandra »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Cassandra wrote:J89's CURRENT L&D example 18:
Nihon Kiin's J89 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------------
$$ | . O . X O X O . . . .
$$ | O X X X O X O O . . .
$$ | . X O O O X X O O . .
$$ | X X O O . O X X O , .
$$ | O O O . O X . X O . .
$$ | X X O O X . X X O . .
$$ | . X X O O X X O O . .
$$ | . . X X X O O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .[/go]
隅の黒七子は「死に石」、白二子は「活き石」。中の黒十三子も「セキ崩れ」で、「死に石」。
Translation into English:
"In the corner, the seven Black stones are 'dead stones', the two White stones are 'alive stones'. The thirteen Black stones in the centre are also 'dead stones', due to the 'collapse of the seki'."


Despite trying very hard, I was UNABLE to achieve this "desired" result by applying "GT territory rules".

Gérard, probably you may be so very kind to show me how your rules work here successfully (with regard to Black's groups, to be clear; i.e. "the entire corner is White territory")...
The answer is quite simple Thomas, the position you propose is quite different from example 18.

Let's consider example 18:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------------
$$ | . O . X O . O X X O .
$$ | O X X X O O X . X O .
$$ | . X O O O X . X X O .
$$ | X X O . O O X X O O .
$$ | O O O O O X O O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
In "GT territory rule" white claims for controlling all the corner by the sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass
$$ +----------------------
$$ | 1 5 3 X O . O X X O .
$$ | O X X X O O X . X O .
$$ | 4 X O O O X . X X O .
$$ | X X O . O O X X O O .
$$ | O O O O O X O O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass
$$ +----------------------
$$ | 6 O 9 X O 8 O X X O .
$$ | 7 X X X O O X . X O .
$$ | X X O O O X . X X O .
$$ | X X O . O O X X O O .
$$ | O O O O O X O O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
with the result expected.

BTW J89 does not give the "good" result due to the now famous loop with the double ko and the pass-for-ko.

If you wish me to show you how "GT territory rule" handles your new (difficult!) position tell me and I will explain in detail.
I already did!!!

You might want to click at the hyperlink provided at the very start of my posting...
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
jann
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Re: GT territory rule

Post by jann »

I think J89 revised the example exactly for this reason: the old version is buggy since the double ko is useless there regardless of rules.
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