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Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=2067

Page 7 of 8

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:53 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hmm, I didn't think his last move connected for some reason, but I guess I made a mistake... I guess I will sacrifice those stones, then.

I'll play over here.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:45 am
by Jedo
Sacrifice those stones?! Tha doesn't seem reasonable. After all, it's not like this is a high handicap game where black can afford sch great losses. The stones are a pain to save though and dragging them out s pretty painful. Maybe something like n12, which threatens to connect everything and build thckness? It certainly leaves a cutting point, but maybe cutting directly isn't so good for white. Hmm...


Ps hide tags are a pain in the ass on cell phones...

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:10 am
by Kirby
I am leaving to visit Korea. I will be gone at least until October 23.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:23 pm
by Aphelion
Kirby, you make it so difficult to root for you when you play moves like this :(.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:32 pm
by Kirby
Aphelion wrote:Kirby, you make it so difficult to root for you when you play moves like this :(.


Could you elaborate?

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:42 pm
by yithril
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The lower left is the most urgent point. I'll deal with the upper right later.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:43 pm
by Aphelion
Kirby wrote:
Aphelion wrote:Kirby, you make it so difficult to root for you when you play moves like this :(.


Could you elaborate?


It has to do with what I said before about you "not wanting to play the game". That move, together with the tone of your comments, makes it seem like you are overly deflated about what happened on the top right . It feels like you are just hunkering down and weathering the storm, where there is still plenty of "game" left to be played. The top right group clearly isn't dead, and you talk about sacrificing it. I'm not sure the current move itself is bad, but in conjunction with your comment the feeling I get is "Ok, white can have those stones because I am not confident enough to fight and save them, I'm just going to play this big point, hopefully eke out some okayish result and hopefully my lead will last". There's not too much sense of spirit, ambition, or positive direction for the game as a whole, and hence its hard to root for this style despite hoping that you personally do well.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:59 pm
by dfan
Kirby wrote:Hmm, I didn't think his last move connected for some reason, but I guess I made a mistake... I guess I will sacrifice those stones, then.

Wait, is he sacrificing the entire upper right corner?? That seems exceedingly large.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:07 pm
by hyperpape
@dfan et al

Adding to the weirdness, it's only a sacrifice if white has a clean capture, or if white would play some move threatening to capture and black would not want to resist.

Perhaps Kirby sees more than I do, but I see no such move. If White can't capture for sure, black should resist, and I'm not sure white can capture for sure.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:19 pm
by Bill Spight
How did Black go wrong in the top right? I think that it started with :b48:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


First :b48: is a single purpose move, but isn't it obvious that the action is in the top right? There are two unsettled groups there, one Black and one White. In addition, the corner is open and there is room for an invasion on the top side. Black started an attack with the marked stones. Why abandon it now?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O a . c . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X X X . b . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like :b48: in this diagram. It is a triple purpose move. It strengthens the Black group, it attacks the White group, and it threatens to invade the top side. But other moves are good, such as "a" and "b". Even "c" is not bad. :)


I have unhidden #86 and #90. :)

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:53 pm
by Bill Spight
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b54: is neither here nor there. Aside from leaving a heavy group in the top right, it is too close to Black's strength in the top left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On the left side I think that :b54: in this diagram is good. "a" allows White to come in with a wedge at "b".

But of course White has a good play in the top right at :w55:. (When to play it is another question.) The trouble with sacrificing the top right corner is that White still has weaknesses on top, which a play like :w55: covers. Black does not want to sacrifice both the corner and the invasion or reduction.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , 5 . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The proverb says that the one space jump, :b54:, is never bad, but after :w55: Black has no attractive move and his stones are still floating.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . 0 . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . 8 4 5 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 9 . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What about this :b54:? White cannot push and cut.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , 7 5 O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . 6 4 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 8 . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After this sequence Black has eye potential and elbow room. :)

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:22 am
by Kirby
Aphelion: I guess I can read your response...?

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:25 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I forgot how damaging these games can be to my ego... :)

Anyway, I have a bit of time, so I decided to respond to yithril's move. I think it's good to protect the corner, because the move I played last is in a good spot for a sequence like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X 4 . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . 2 X . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White doesn't have a great extension.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:28 am
by Aphelion
Oops, yea Kirby that response is for you so feel free to open the hide tags.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:45 pm
by yithril
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . 7 X . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Extending here seemed like it's just too easy. I gotta make his narrow extension from before even more narrow by grabbing as much territory as possible here. Like I said earlier, the top right should help me extend my top territory and actually secure it, but there's no reason to rush there now.
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