[go]$$Bcm60 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X 5 . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . 8 X 4 O 7 O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O 6 X . . X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . a . O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . b . . . . . . c . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
moves like a,b & c can allow white to live easily, and make this game more complicated, which is what white wants to accomplish in handi games, black's job is to keep it simple and attack attack attack!
im trying to do more variations to help with my reading and he always hits me with a suprise
im thinking about this one too, it is good for me IMO
$$Bcm60 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X 4 O 8 O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O 6 X 7 . X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . . 5 . 9 . . O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm60 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O . O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O 6 X . . X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The fight continues ... watching for critical points.
I know, I'm not saying much about this fight. The truth is I've tried a couple times and failed to write anything near a good enough explanation of what kind of reading I'm doing in this fight.
The fight has become an all-or-nothing reading battle. Each move, I'm looking at 3-5 candidate moves I look for critical shape points and check for sequences that use those critical points (like E2).
There are so many different lines, many with similar shapes. I just don't know where to start describing.
Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:35 am
by 1986
Good 2 have u back, now back to business
$$Bcm60 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O . O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O O X 7 . X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm60 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O 8 O X O a . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O 6 X 7 . X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . . X . 9 b c O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
that's life, the question is how is he going to play after that my guess is for F2 White (b), i would play G2 (c) if he does besides that im working out (a) as a potential play for my next move here are my thoughts on (a) so far
$$Bcm60 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O 8 O X O 9 . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O 6 X 7 0 X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X c a X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . d X b e . g O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm60 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O 8 O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O O X X . X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We're coming to the crux of this fight. What will the r sult be?
In actual fact, I thought this fight would turn out much bigger. As it's turning out, the conclusion of this game may not hinge upon the result of this fight ...
What result do I read? Well, I think I have a decent response to whatever he decides to play ... but I need to react to his plays for now. Check back next move, It's likely to be a very important move in the fight!
Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:24 am
by 1986
$$Bcm60 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O O X X . X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . 9 X . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm60 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O O X X . X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . 9 X . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
ok, i figured it out finally, to stop that shortage of liberities i found in my last variation, i should play here. this is a complicated fight; Now its on marcus!
Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:21 pm
by illluck
This seems pretty complicated. It feels a bit more dangerous for white. I think perhaps something like 1-4 below (so that black will play 2 rather than let white connect the group back by capturing the 4 stones) and then something like a b c to make some eyeshape and then living will be sente due to black having to protect corner?
$$Bcm00 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . b . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O O O X O . a X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O O X X . X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . 5 X . O . c X . O X X O . . | $$ | . X X . 2 3 4 O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm60 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O O X X . X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . 0 X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
BANG! This is one of the lines I've expected to end up at. Can he read this out to the end? So far I haven't been unpleasantly surprised. I expect him to connect at F4, from which I will endeavor to kill his corner. I think I have JUST enough liberties to make ko in the worst case scenario.
Let's see if I read this out wrong.
For the record, even if I win this battle, the game is not in my favour, I don't think. I'm still fixing my terrible fuseki choices.
Observers, please feel free to ask about specific variations. I've got a lot of 'em sitting in my head.
Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:57 pm
by illluck
Marcus's last move is really nice - I missed it for some reason XD Now it does indeed look hard for black.
Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:17 pm
by 1986
$$Bcm70 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O O X X 1 X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm70 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O O X X 1 X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . X X . 5 2 3 O . . 6 . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . 7 . . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
even if he tries something like this i have enough room in the corner to make eyes , i might be wrong but im sitting here focused on the board and i see no death in my shape
Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:46 pm
by illluck
I obvious read worse than both 1986 and Marcus. Whenever they state something with certainty I believe that they are right XDDDDDDDDDD
I think 1986 is right now again...
Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:00 am
by Marcus
$$Bcm70 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . X X . . 2 . O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm70 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O O X X 1 X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . X X . 5 2 3 O . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . 7 6 8 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is the critical line. If 1986 deviates from this, I think I can crush the corner. After this sequence, the fighting gets complicated again. I think from here I can make this one eye versus one eye, or perhaps 1986 will allow us both to live.
Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:19 am
by Sur
illluck wrote:I obvious read worse than both 1986 and Marcus. Whenever they state something with certainty I believe that they are right XDDDDDDDDDD
I think 1986 is right now again...
I don't think he is. Why would white ever want to play 75 as in 1986's last diagram?
Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:35 am
by schultz
Sur wrote:
illluck wrote:I obvious read worse than both 1986 and Marcus. Whenever they state something with certainty I believe that they are right XDDDDDDDDDD
I think 1986 is right now again...
I don't think he is. Why would white ever want to play 75 as in 1986's last diagram?
in 1986's diagram is definitely not good for this situation - he's missing the obvious move that Marcus has shown.
Even with the stone there ( at e1) following Marcus' diagram, it's easy to miss the fact that D2 is not a true eye, even with a black play at E3 (these false eyes are the kind I miss all the time when I'm trying to read things out in my head).
Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:09 am
by illluck
To be honest I didn't even read 1986's second diagram because his first diagram was what I misread. I don't think Marcus can play like his variation because this seems dangerous for white (though, my demonstrated ddk reading so far does not inspire confidence :p).
$$Bcm70 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . | $$ | . O O X X 1 X X O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . O . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . X X . 5 2 3 O . 9 . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . 7 6 8 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
i found some holes in it too
This is one of the lines I've expected to end up at. Can he read this out to the end? So far I haven't been unpleasantly surprised. I expect him to connect at F4, from which I will endeavor to kill his corner. I think I have JUST enough liberties to make ko in the worst case scenario.
in 1986's diagram is definitely not good for this situation - he's missing the obvious move that Marcus has shown.