Life In 19x19

balistic wrote:I borrow a book from you, you ask for the book back. I say no because you will lend the book to someone else and thats a bad idea.
It holds no water, ultimately it is your book and your choice.

No, this is not an accurate analogy. The center is not a piece of property that is easily traded around. If you sell the building, you then lose something that you do not get back at the new location.
A center like this is built on a community, you don't suddenly get that community at a new location.

Yep, supporting go players for eternity is the only way to complete the legacy. Bull -cough-. [MOD edit]

Supporting go players for eternity? Have you ever been to one of the centers? They're expected to make ends meet. Which is WHY the NY go center closed, and the Seattle one didn't.

How about in their generosity in the promotion of go worldwide. What has the SGC done for anyone else besides themselves?

This is a really ugly statement. For one, you have no idea what the SGC has or has not done (Or you wouldn't be so ready to throw them into an obvious "straw man" role). As far as their generosity worldwide. I trust a bureaucracy about as far as I can throw a paper airplane bearing a memo. This is an accountant's decision, not the decision of the idealist philanthropists.

These are all things that have been mentioned previously. As stated before, the accusers need release real information about why this action HAD to take place as it is extreme.They need to justify themselves before anyone will be inclined to accept the scenario. So far its just heavy accusations.

They have revealed information. And many of us have said we need more, but at the moment, there is no more reason to back the Nihon Kiin than the SGC.

balistic wrote:I borrow a book from you, you ask for the book back. I say no because you will lend the book to someone else and thats a bad idea.
It holds no water, ultimately it is your book and your choice.

shapenaji wrote:Destroying Iwamoto-sensei's legacy in doing so is a worse one.

Yep, supporting go players for eternity is the only way to complete the legacy. Bull -cough-. [MOD edit]

shapenaji wrote:I'm not sure where your wellspring of faith in the good intentions of the Nihon Kiin comes from

How about in their generosity in the promotion of go worldwide. What has the SGC done for anyone else besides themselves?

Ok, several problems here. Your book analogy is not apt, because first of all as shapenaji said the SGC is something that cannot be recreated somewhere else. More importantly, it is inaccurate because it was never the Kiin's "book" in the first place; it was iwamoto's, who (perhaps naively) decided to give the building through the Kiin, trusting that they wouldn't destroy a self-sufficient institution to help solve their own monetary problems.

Supporting go players for eternity? What are you talking about? The Kiin has again and again shown their reluctance to give any support in any form to either center, see the case of the NYGC.

As for the doing things for others, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. The SGC was founded in order to spread go in seattle by giving players a reliable space to play, and that is what it has accomplished.

Wether or not the SGC actually has any legal ground to stand on is hard to say, but I don't see how you can argue that the Kiin's actions do not directly go against Iwamoto's stated wishes. If only he had given the buildings directly to the american go community instead of trusting the Kiin, we would not be in this situation.

Jedo wrote:The SGC was founded in order to spread go in seattle by giving players a reliable space to play, and that is what it has accomplished.

Probably a good idea for everyone to read an article from around the time of the founding of the SGC.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource. ... ug=2142108

According to the article Iwamoto's wanted to "Develop Go centers worldwide to promote the game he loved and to improve international understanding."

Unfortunately the current situation isn't exactly improving international understanding.

Maybe the Nihon Kiin is very concerned about how "Many people have dropped out of grad school after getting hooked on Go" lol. Just joking.

Jedo wrote:the SGC is something that cannot be recreated somewhere else.

It can't??! Why not? Upon receiving the NK's eviction letter, my first thought would have been: "how can we recreate the center somewhere else?" (and not "whom do we sue?")

First of all, innocent until proven guilty. At least make it clear as to what fraud has occured and where the breach of contract resides.

@Jedo and shapenaji: The SGC is not self-sufficient then, if is is reliant on the building it doesnt hold ownership over.

Supporting go players for eternity was in reference to, you cant expect the circumstances to always remain the same. Things change and it can be sad, but nothing in life stays exactly the same.

The Nihon Kiin has done a lot more for go and go players than the SGC has ever done, dont even try to compare the two.

With the information we have at the moment, the SGC is appearing in a darker light than the Nihon Kiin.

balistic wrote:First of all, innocent until proven guilty. At least make it clear as to what fraud has occured and where the breach of contract resides.

This applies to both sides. See earlier in the thread for what the SGC has said regarding the breach of contract... it's there...

@Jedo and shapenaji: The SGC is not self-sufficient then, if is is reliant on the building it doesnt hold ownership over.

by this logic, neither is any small business that has a landlord. I would hope you believe that small businesses have rights and cannot be simply tossed out because the landlord heard about this really sweet deal involving selling the land to make room for a strip mall. Tenants have rights.

Supporting go players for eternity was in reference to, you cant expect the circumstances to always remain the same. Things change and it can be sad, but nothing in life stays exactly the same.

I believe SGC's argument was that this was a trust, held by the Nihon Kiin, for the benefit of the SGC.

There are a few pieces to consider here:

A) It is a bad idea to throw good money after bad. NYGC (despite the fact that I have been to that go center and had a great time there) was not as successful as SGC, and if the Nihon Kiin is being absurd and routing money poorly, it's immoral to let a venerable institution like the Nihon Kiin make mistakes.

B) EVEN if the Nihon Kiin owns the property, if the property was held in trust for the sake of the continued existence of go in America, there is a chance the Nihon Kiin breached the contract. Now, the solution to that breach of contract may not be litigation (See C.)

C) The existence of an announcement declaring their intention to file suit does not imply that other methods to seek a resolution were skipped. In fact, the only parties of this dispute that have responded here (the SGC) have said the opposite is true.

The Nihon Kiin has done a lot more for go and go players than the SGC has ever done, dont even try to compare the two.

A matter of scale here. This argument only holds water if the outcome of the litigation was the demise of one or the other. The SGC and the Nihon Kiin are not mutually exclusive. Just because the Nihon Kiin has done positive things for go does not give it free reign to take steps in the opposite direction.

If I save 1000 people, it doesn't give me the right to kill 1. Nor does it give me a free hand to ignore my contractual obligations when dealing with a party that has only helped a few people

With the information we have at the moment, the SGC is appearing in a darker light than the Nihon Kiin.

Seeing as the Nihon Kiin has not released a public statement that we have access to. I can't see how we can see the Nihon Kiin in any light but the one the evidence suggests. Which currently comes from one side of the lawsuit...

Based on the evidence alone, your current position (Assuming you apply the scientific method) should be positive toward the SGC (At the very least, it should be neutral). Any negative opinion of the SGC at this stage is necessarily biased.

hanekomu wrote:
I hope their stance is not "The SGC can sue whomever it pleases and it's none of your business" - the Go community isn't big enough for that.

Um, Given that this thread was started via an announcement by the SGC, and that SGC members have been responding in order to attempt to clarify the situation, I can't see how you would believe this was their stance...

hanekomu wrote:
Have they? If you refer to Redbeard's post, he said "I am a member of the Seattle Go Center, but I do not serve on the board of the SGC so I only know what has been publicly presented about this situation." I don't consider that an official explanation.

Also, I can't see where the ownership of the building is explained, or the type of contract that exists/existed between the Nihon Ki-in and the NYGC, SGC or EGCC.

This information is not in the first post of this thread either, as far as I can determine.

If I've overlooked it, please point me to the relevant post. Thanks.

The first post in the thread appeared to be the official statement. I would be extremely surprised if they didn't have some paperwork to back up their claim. Otherwise the court date is not going to be pleasant for them. I don't know why you need to see the "Long form birth certificate".

The ownership has not been explained completely, though over the course of the thread, we have had replies from Redbeard and Wessanoctopus (Who helped take care of the NYGC, I assume the situation there was similar). Wessanoctopus responses contained some clues to the relationship here.

However, nothing I've seen suggests that the SGC is trying to hide the lawsuit... Or that they're particularly happy about having to bring it. Redbeard gives us a look at the thought process on their end, and it's pretty compelling.

My biggest issue with this whole mess is that the Nihon Kiin is being shortsighted and destructive. (Even if what they are doing IS legal, I'd be more than willing to make a fuss about it on here)

If the Nihon Kiin shut out the opinions of the SGC and didn't allow for an appeals process here to weigh the merits of closing, then I'm afraid they deserve some bad publicity for that alone.

shapenaji wrote:If I save 1000 people, it doesn't give me the right to kill 1.

Yet your country believes otherwise. Bin laden, Muammar Al-Gaddafi ...

I am done with parroting against your repitious points. If it entertains you so much just keep re-reading my old posts.

The rest of us will happily wait for the information we need.

balistic wrote:...Bin laden, Muammar Al-Gaddafi...

No. Hitler.

hyperpape wrote:

balistic wrote:...Bin laden, Muammar Al-Gaddafi...

No. Hitler.

Exactly.

shapenaji, the kiin might be being destructive, but SGC is only being more destructive in the response.

First, the lawsuit won't accomplish anything. If the trust is running low on money, then there is nothing the Kiin can do. Even if SGC wins the lawsuit, the building can still probably be sold through different means.

Second, SGC's actions are destructive to baduk for everyone in north america. Japanese orgs react very badly to being sued. This will jeopardize the Kiin's support to anyone else, and make any other professional extremely reluctant to donate to baduk related activities outside of Japan.

I understand how frustrating it can be when communications break down. I deal with intercompany relationships between the US and Japan on a daily basis. Unfortuantely the American side sometimes expects the Japan side to come to the table without any information provided in advance from the Americans. If the Americans get impatient and take drastic action, it NEVER works out.

There are literally hundreds of places worldwide to put a center like this. Nobody (Kiin, KBC,etc) will choose Seattle after this. I'm not saying this to ruffle feathers, I'm just being dead honest here. Its hard for me to express in words how bad this looks in the business culture there.

shapenaji wrote:

@Jedo and shapenaji: The SGC is not self-sufficient then, if is is reliant on the building it doesnt hold ownership over.

by this logic, neither is any small business that has a landlord. I would hope you believe that small businesses have rights and cannot be simply tossed out because the landlord heard about this really sweet deal involving selling the land to make room for a strip mall. Tenants have rights.
.

Well, I have tried to stay out of this, but I suppose, now that "Hitler" is being thrown around, this thread's days may be numbered.

It seems to me that I stand between Ed Lee and Shapenaji on this situation. For what the Nihon Kiin has done, and for Iwamoto as well, I lean towards Ed, and I share his sense of ingratitude that it has come to this.

However, since I also sympathize with what it must be like to lose a successful, daily go club, knowing how it feels to lose an unsuccessful daily go club here in Baltmore - I want to understand the other point of view.

However, Shapenaji statements are way too emotional on the other side, and are really quite biased. A good example is his statement above. A small business pays the landlord money for the of the property. It makes enough money to pay all of its other bills and obligations, and makes some profit for its owner. The landlord is compensated for the present value of the property by the rent - in an arms length transaction. That is self sufficient, the Seattle Go Center is only self suffient if it is the de facto owner of the property.

I believe the relevant facts are as follows:

1. Iwamoto presented the world with a pile of money to spread go.
2. He gave the Nihon Kiin the power to manage this effort.
3. During his life, Go Centers in New York, Seattle, Amsterdam and Sao Paulo were founded.
4. The Seattle Center was planned to make money from first floor commercial rents in order to support the Center and the fees associated with the building.
5. Despite struggles, Seattle has managed to survive, if not thrive, without additional funds from the Nihon Kiin.
6. Amsterdam has "succeeded" as well, New York failed and I have no info on Sao Paulo.
7. The Nihon Kiin has decided to sell the building in Seattle, and use the funds to make NY viable.
8. Attempts to discuss this have not been successful, as far as the Seattle Go Center is concerned.
9. Seattle has filed suit.

Feel free to quibble, but these are the facts as I understand it. The value of this gift to American Go, both in NY and Seattle has been enormous, and demands our thanks. I do not believe Seattle can rely on generic "tenant's rights", they simply do not have the legal status of rent paying tenants.

But perhaps they do have some equitable rights along the lines judicata theorized. They have been carrying out the work, the mission, of the original grant, with reasonable, fairly stable success.

The big missing piece for me is the exact nature of the bequest from Honinbo Kunwa and how much latitude does the Nihon Kiin have in fulfilling his goals. This is the black box we are dealing with.

I hope I am wrong, but I find it hard to believe that the Nihon Kiin is hard wired, explicitly demanded to commit resources and assets permanently at each location. I find it hard to believe that it would not be rational, and in the spirit of their instructions, that having a thriving Go Center in the great metropolitan city (I would never want to live there - I would choose Seattle anyday) of New York is more important than a successful one in Seattle. If the assets of the bequest support only one location, then from an international point of view, New York seems a rational choice - so good they named it twice. So long as the funds from the sale of the building in Seattle are used to serve the purposes of the bequest - demonizing the Nihon Kiin is unfair.

But this is undeniably a bitter pill for Seattle, who can rightly claim, even if all circumstances might not have been equal, that they succeeded, and NY failed.

It is easy to honor the Honinbo for his generosity, and the Seattle folks for their hard work, but I see all manner of bad aji in demonizing the Nihon Kiin for this decision. I simply do not believe that the "black box" in this equation is going reveal that this call is outside of their authority.

Again, I hope I am wrong, and that the bequest states that assets, once placed and once established, belong to the Go community of that place, somehow forever. I am afraid this is unlikely however, and I do not welcome the bad aji of this development.

Probably it's always a bad idea to mention Hitler, but I hope it's clear that the intent of the comment was to be a bizarre non-sequitur, since I thought the previous post's mention of Bin-Laden was a bizarre non-sequitur.

balistic wrote:

shapenaji wrote:If I save 1000 people, it doesn't give me the right to kill 1.

Yet your country believes otherwise. Bin laden, Muammar Al-Gaddafi ...

I am done with parroting against your repitious points. If it entertains you so much just keep re-reading my old posts.

The rest of us will happily wait for the information we need.

The size of this logical fallacy is so enormous I'm not sure you're not trolling.

Cheers.