User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:Because I do not see that the proof would remain unaffected and a new proof for a changed local-2 definition is not available.

Here you are, Robert.

I think you will also be able to recognise that there is some superflous text in Chris' original proof.

---------------------------------------------

From: Chris Dams <chr...@wn5.nospamplease.nl>
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Model for the World Amateur Go Championship Rules
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:56:06 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <e1jph6$13q$1@wnnews.sci.kun.nl>
References: <p67q32p0mo82bm1c2h5gpolhs93hncpu52@4ax.com> <e1j9jn$pla$1@wnnews.sci.kun.nl> <27gq32p0vhdvn6j0e5o1fneud7erkaas4a@4ax.com>


Dear Robert,

Robert Jasiek <jas...@snafu.de> writes:

>On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:24:23 +0000 (UTC), Chris Dams
><chr...@wn5.nospamplease.nl> wrote:
>>> In a position, a string of a player is _two-eye-alive_ if the
>>>opponent cannot force no intersection of the string with a
>>>two-eye-formation on.
>>
>>> _J2003-alive_ is defined like in J2003 as either uncapturable,
>>>capturable-1, or capturable-2.
>>
>>> In a position, a string is _WAGC-alive-in-seki_ if it is
>>>J2003-alive and not two-eye-alive.
>>
>>> In a position, a string is _WAGC-alive_ if it is either
>>>two-eye-alive or WAGC-alive-in-seki.
>>
>>From these definitions it follows that WAGC-alive is identical to
>>J2003-alive.

>I doubt this. If you claim it, then please present a formal proof!

I have to admit that I, at first, interpreted "either" as "or" in the
definition of WAGC-alive. However, I think the identity of J2003-alive
and WAGC-alive is still provable. Proof is given below.

Let us denote

> In a position, a string is _WAGC-alive-in-seki_ if it is
> J2003-alive and not two-eye-alive.

as

WAGC-alive-in-seki == J2003-alive && (!two-eye-alive )

In the same notation we also have from

> In a position, a string is _WAGC-alive_ if it is either
> two-eye-alive or WAGC-alive-in-seki.

WAGC-alive == two-eye-alive ^^ WAGC-alive-in-seki.

Substituting the former into the latter expression, we find

WAGC-alive == two-eye-alive ^^ (J2003-alive && (!two-eye-alive)).

In propositional calculus this reduces to

WAGC-alive == J2003-alive || two-eye-alive.

If we now also have the implication two-eye-alive -> J2003-alive if follows
that

WAGC-alive == J2003-alive.

*** insert >>> For the following it is assumed that "local-2" is understood without its points, which belong to "local-1" <<< insert

For the implication two-eye-alive ->J2003-alive, imagine that a string is
two-eye-alive. The string can either be uncapturable or not uncapturable.
(1) The string is uncapturable -> It is J2003-alive
(2) It is not uncapturable -> The string is either capturable-1 or
not capturable-1
(2a) It is capturable-1 -> It is J2003-alive
(2b) It is not capturable-1 -> Because the string is two-eye-alive there
is in every hypothetical-strategy of its opponent a
hypothetical-sequence in which
we reach a two-eye-formation that includes one of its intersections.
For every
hypothetical-strategy H of the opponent, we choose a
hypothetical-sequence S(H) in it
where the oponent reaches a two-eye-formation and subsequently only
passes. Because the two-eye-formation cannot be capture by only moves
of its opponent, it consists of permanent stones. In S(H) the
two-eye-formation that is formed on the captured string *** could be deleted, see below >>> has either a
stone on local-1 of the string or it <<< could be deleted, see below ***
does not have a stone on local-1
of the string
(2b1) If it has a stone on local-1 of the string, *** delete >>> it is also on
local-2 <<< delete ***
*** insert >>> it would be capturable-1, what contradicts the assumption that the string is not capturable-1. So the string cannot have a stone on local-1. <<< insert *** *** (2b1) can be deleted completely !!! ***.
(2b2) *** delete >>> If <<< delete *** *** insert >>> Because <<< insert *** it does not have a stone on local-1 of the string,
then local-1 of the string consists of the one or both
of the empty intersections of the two-eye-formation. Actually,
it consists of one of the intersections since if it would consist
of both, these would have to be adjacent to each other which
contradicts the definition of a two-eye-formation. So, local-1
of the string consists of one intersection and during S(H) it
becomes one of the the empty points of a two-eye-formation. This
implies that this two-eye formation includes strings that occupy
the intersections adjacent to local-1. Because local-1 consists of
one intersections these adjacent intersections where empty or
occupied by opposing stones. Hence, these intersections belong to
local-2 of the string.
In *** delete >>> both (2b1) and <<< delete *** (2b2) we see that the two-eye-formation that is
formed in S(H) has permanent stones on local-2 of the string. Hence,
if every hypothetical-strategy of the opponent of the string there
is a hypothetical-sequence where a permanent-stone is played on
local-2. Hence, the opponent cannot force both caputre of the string
and no local-2 permanent stone. Hence, the string is capturable-2.
Hence, it is J2003-alive.
Hence, under the assumption that the string is two-eye-alive, we find that
it is J2003-alive. QED.

Best,
Chris
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

imagine that a string is two-eye-alive. [...]
(2) It is not uncapturable [...] (2b) It is not capturable-1 [...]
(2b1) If it has a stone on local-1 of the string, [...] it would be capturable-1


Why would it be capturable-1? From the fact that initially a stone of the string is on local-1, it does not (obviously) necessarily follow that, after the string's capture, a new permanent-stone will be on local-1. So your contradiction of the string being both capturable-1 and not capturable-1 is a fake construction. Therefore your guessed simplification would need better justification.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:imagine that a string is two-eye-alive. [...]
(2) It is not uncapturable [...] (2b) It is not capturable-1 [...]
(2b1) If it has a stone on local-1 of the string, [...] it would be capturable-1


Why would it be capturable-1? From the fact that initially a stone of the string is on local-1, it does not (obviously) necessarily follow that, after the string's capture, a new permanent-stone will be on local-1. So your contradiction of the string being both capturable-1 and not capturable-1 is a fake construction. Therefore your guessed simplification would need better justification.


(2b) is a restriction to "not capturable-1".

"capturable-1" is defined as "... the opponent cannot ... force ... no local-1 permanent-stone of the player."

(A) It follows that "capturable-1" is TRUE, if there develops a permanent stone on at least one point of local-1.

(B) It follows that "capturable-1" is FALSE, if there will be no permanent stone on any of the points of local-1.

(2b) is true only if "capturable-1" is FALSE, so there is no room left for (2b1), due to (B).


Better think logical about "logic" before starting to quarrel !
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

Citation from J2003:

"A permanent-stone is a stone that IS PLAYED during a hypothetical-sequence and then not removed during the rest of the hypothetical-sequence."

(2b) says: "It is not capturable-1".

As you describe correctly in informal words, (2b) means:
"there WILL BE [PLAYED] no permanent-stone on any of the points of local-1."

Now compare this to condition (2b1):
"[IN THE FINAL-POSITION,] it [CURRENTLY] HAS a stone on local-1 of the string"

While (2b1) speaks about the present (the initial string in the final-position), (2b) speaks about the future (after the string's capture: a then newly played permanent-stone). (2b1) and (2b) speak about different times!

Therefore the conditions (2b) and (2b1) are NOT mutually exclusive.

So your conclusion "so there is no room left for (2b1)" is false.

Better think logical about "logic" before starting to quarrel !


Since I think logically, I may quarrel!:) (Socrates would have said more generally: "I think therefore I am.") You still need to learn thinking locally before you may quarrel;)
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

Sorry, Robert, but you are introducing a type of string, that has no stone on its local-1.

Can you please give an example ?
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

I am not introducing a type of string, that HAS no stone on its local-1. I am explaining that, for a string and its local-1,

AFTER THE STRING'S CAPTURE,

a NEW stone THEN might or might not be on the local-1.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:I am not introducing a type of string, that HAS no stone on its local-1. I am explaining that, for a string and its local-1,

AFTER THE STRING'S CAPTURE,

a NEW stone THEN might or might not be on the local-1.

That's correct without doubt.

But if the new stone (permanent of course, otherwise it would make no sense) is on local-1, the string will be called capturable-1, due to the definition of capturable-1.

(2b) determines the string to be NOT capturable-1.

If follows that a string, which is treated within (2b) cannot have a new stone on local-1.

Any condition within (2b) referring to local-1 is senseless, at the same time superfluous.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

if the new [permanent-stone] is on local-1, the string will be called capturable-1, due to the definition of capturable-1.


This is not necessarily so!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B circle = local-1
$$ -------------
$$ |. . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . .|
$$ |. . W . O . .|
$$ |. . X X X . .|
$$ |. . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . .|
$$ -------------[/go]


Suppose White cannot force a permanent-stone on circle, i.e., the initial string is not capturable-1. Now suppose we are in the analysis of whether the initial string is capturable-2 and White has hypothetically played the two stones. Next Black will cut and suppose that Black cannot capture both stones. (White can force a permanent-stone that is the left white stone, the right white stone or elsewhere in the local-2.) Suppose that Black can capture one of them but that the other will become a permanent-stone. If Black captures the right stone, then the left stone is on the local-1 part of the local-2. If Black captures the left stone, then the right one is not on the local-1 part of the local-2.

I do not know an actual example with that behaviour but the above illustrates the principle possibility.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:I do not know an actual example with that behaviour but the above illustrates the principle possibility.

1989 Nihon Kiin rules example #4.

Obviously you want to follow multiple aims with your J2003 construction, this may be a problem somewhat. But let me try a conclusion:

With my suggestion of using (local-2 without its local-1) in capturable-2, White's strings would be neither capturable-1 nor capturable-2, following your thinking to evaluate the possibility of both statuses independently from another (I would not prefer this kind of thinking, but this would be another topic).

So they would be "dead", what I have ever claimed. ;-)

If it is your wish to have both of White's strings capturable-2, I would suggest you to use (local-2 without its local-1) as "local-2" (new version) and to extend the board area used in the formula for capturable-2 by "local-1".

This way it would become clearly visible that this very special area-extension will be necessary in a very few very "exotic" positions only.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

1989 Nihon Kiin rules example #4.


Presumably, thanks.

If it is your wish to have both of White's strings capturable-2,


For J2003, sure.

and to extend the board area used in the formula for capturable-2 by "local-1".


What do you mean by this?

This way it would become clearly visible that this very special area-extension will be necessary in a very few very "exotic" positions only.


For typically final positions, pretty likely.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:
and to extend the board area used in the formula for capturable-2 by "local-1".

What do you mean by this?]


A player's final-string is capturable-2 if it is neither uncapturable nor capturable-1 and the opponent cannot - with the same hypothetical-strategy - force both capture of the string's stones and no local-2 *** insert >>> and no local-1 <<< insert *** permanent-stone of the player.

In conjunction with the definition of capturable-1 you can now distinguish between

  • Common case I: the player can force at least one permanent stone on local-1.
  • Common case II: the player cannot force any permanent stone on local-1, but can force at least one permanent stone on local-2.
  • Abnormal case: the player can neither force any permanent stone on local-1 nor on local-2 (the aim local-1 exclusive or local-2 is given before the try); but if the opponent can force no permanent stone on local-1, the player can force at least one permanent stone on local-2, and vice-versa.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

Case II is not that common after the endgame.

Isolated for themselves, your alternative local/capturable definitions are possible but now what does that mean for trying to redo Chris's proof for such other definitions? IIRC from memory, conflicting positions are not known. So maybe one could try a new proof for the alternative situation.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:Case II is not that common after the endgame.

Isolated for themselves, your alternative local/capturable definitions are possible but now what does that mean for trying to redo Chris's proof for such other definitions? IIRC from memory, conflicting positions are not known. So maybe one could try a new proof for the alternative situation.

OK, Case II is a bit nearer to "common" than to "abnormal", when regarding the examples.

Chris' proof is no problem. Just leave it as it is or follow my suggestion. (2b1) does not do any harm, it may be only superfluous.

The branch for capturable-1 covers all Nakade and Uttegaeshi.
The branch for not-capturable-1 covers the only remaining position, in which one single stone is transformed to one of only two eye points of a two-eye-formation.

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------


But let's try another view.

To not interfere with the definitions in J2003, let us connect

"capturable" to "the opponent can force the capture of the string"

and (thereafter)

"pin1" to "the player can force at least one permanent stone in local-1" and
"pin2'" to "the player can force at least one permanent stone in local-2 minus local-1" (local-2 minus local-1 = "local-2'").

You can assign these definitions to my latest version of Chris' proof respectively as "capturable-pin1" for "capturable-1", "capturable-pin2" for "capturable-2" and "local-2'" for "local-2".

What remains open is your fear that a position could have been "forgotten", in which it would be important to use local-2 instead of local-2'.

Your fear is without any good reason. And, in my opinion, your fear is an unavoidable implication of the multiple-step-multiple-aim algorithm you use in J2003.

I think it necessary to add some motivation for "player" and "opponent" to make the application of "force" within your J2003 well-defined:

  • The opponent shall try to reach "capture without any successor" >>> "capture with a successor in local-2 (may be local-2')" >>> "capture with a successor in local-1", in this order.
  • The player shall try to reach "uncapturable" >>> "captured with a successor in local-1" >>> "captured with a successor in local-2 (may be local-2')", in this order.

Then you will have no mismatch with different aims in different steps of the evaluation, because there will be only one set of hypothetical sequences only.

By the way: One simple way for the opponent to avoid capturable-1 or capturable-2 would be to capture during the explicit search for "uncapturable", but not to capture during both of the following explicit searches for "capturable-n".


-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------


Let's return to your fear. I hope that the following text will make my view understandable. But it will be not of the sort you would accept as "proof", I suppose.

#4 is not really an example of this type of position, it resembles a snap-shot mid in the evaluation sequence (originally in #4, nothing had been captured). I suppose it will be extremely difficult to find one position of this type. But anyway, let's go on. I've thought a lot, so I found one example.

Let's bring to mind again that the string under evaluation has been captured.

If the player cannot force a permanent stone neither on local-1 nor on local-2', there are two explanations only.

The first one is simple: It is impossible for the player to have a permanent stone on local-2.

The second one is more complicated: It is not the player, who can force a permanent stone either on local-1 or at local-2', but it is the choice of the opponent. Who shouts: "Ha, ha, if you want capturable-pin1, I will let you have capturable-pin2' and vice versa."

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -----------------
$$ | X X X . X X X |
$$ | X O O O O O X |
$$ | X O . O . O X |
$$ | X O O O O O X |
$$ | O X X X X X O |
$$ | O X . X . X O |
$$ | O X X X X X O |
$$ | O O O . O O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

As can be seen with ease, White's 5-stone-chains are not uncapturable.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -----------------
$$ | X X X . X X X |
$$ | X O O O O O X |
$$ | X O . O . O X |
$$ | X O O O O O X |
$$ | O X X X X X O |
$$ | O X . X . X O |
$$ | O X X X X X O |
$$ | O O O 1 O O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

Black captures with 1.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -----------------
$$ | X X X 2 X X X |
$$ | X O O O O O X |
$$ | X O . O . O X |
$$ | X O O O O O X |
$$ | b X X X X X a |
$$ | . X . X . X . |
$$ | . X X X X X . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

White gives Atari with 2 and it is Black now who can choose:

  • If he connects at "a", White will play at "b" and establish a permanent stone in what is local-2' for her right-hand string and local-1 for her left-hand one.
  • If he connects at "b", White will play at "a" and establish a permanent stone in what is local-1 for her right-hand string and local-2' for her left-hand one.


If you remember my suggestion above, you will realise that both players will meet at "capture(d) with a successor in local-2 (may be local-2')" for each of White's strings.

White cannot "force" capturable-1 and Black must not abandon the "force" to "force" capturable-2, what would be against the spirit of the rules.


And, what is important also, this can only happen with strings that will not become part of a two-eye-formation, so are outside the focus of Chris' proof.

The opponent has to capture "symmetrical", the player has to answer with a "symmetrical" threat. This is impossible, if any of the strings in action could become part of a two-eye-formation on its own.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

You follow lots of different topics in your post. I will have to inspect each of them. Let me start with one topic: your example position per se.

Beautifully elegant, many thanks!
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

Next topic: Do I accept your post as a proof? No, of course not! First of all, it remains unclear what might be the proposition to be possibly proven.
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