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#205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=7716

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Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:15 pm
by skydyr
Bill Spight wrote:You gotta love the top right corner. :o
I'm surprised The Intrepid doesn't want to reinforce one of his cutting points. If black can attack all of them with a few moves, it's hard to see what white will have accomplished aside from giving black free territory.

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:06 am
by The Intrepid
I need to attend to some matters, so I'll probably make my move in a few days. I might post some comments in the meantime, though.

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:33 am
by wineandgolover
Black could still lose this game, but if he does, it'll be because white's tenukies confused him. How does one play p16 and q17, then tenuki? And when pros play a shape like white has in the upper right, they already have a plan; they don't need time to consider. :-? I suspect this will get very ugly, very soon. This is my first comment on a Malkovich game, I hope I did it right... fingers poised to delete...

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:15 pm
by The Intrepid
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 Prisoners: :w1: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O , X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X O X . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I did a score estimate, and I believe that I am still ahead. Black curently has ~22 in the top-left corner, ~8 in the bottom-left corner, and ~12 in the top-right corner. Given all the cutting points in the top-right, Black can expect to make another 10 points there. Top side might give Black additional 5 points. It is hard to estimate how much points Black will make on the bottom or on the right sides. However, if one player takes the bottom, the other player is likely to take the right side, so I'll make the assumption that the net expected gain for either side is 0 from these parts of the board. (I'll revisit this assumption as additional moves on the board are played.)

Hence, Black's score can be estimated as (including the 1 prisoner) B = 42 + 1 + 0-15 = 43-58.

By contrast, White has about 30 points on the left side and about 12 points in the bottom-right corner. However, if White takes a move to reinforce the moyo on the left, White can expect to gain additional 15 points (possibly more, depending on how the situation develops on top of the board). Bottom right corner can likewise be expected to grow by, let's say, an additional 8 points.

Therefore, with the komi, White's score can be estimated as 42 + 6.5 + 0-23 = 48.5-71.5.

To summarize, although the situation is volatile and, thus, conducive to large swings of the score, if I don't cough up too many points as the play develops on top, I should be able to win.

To ensure that the desired outcome of the game is reached, I need to protect my moyo sooner rather than later. In addition to various reductions, such as at "a," Black also has the very annoying invasion at :b1:. Without a reinforcing move (I think "b" works, for example), this invading stone will be able to escape into the center (leaving White with about 30 points of territory on the left--the figure used in the above calculation).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . .
$$ | . . . X . O X . O , X
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . a b . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . . . . .
$$ | O X X X O X . . . , .
$$ | . O X O X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
As for the move in the game, I chose to attack the Black stone at L16 with a keima because this move serves to push the Black stone away from my moyo. Moreover, the keima acts to expand the moyo and to reinforce some of the moyo's weaknesses. In response, topazg can choose between the following moves:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . c . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O , X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O d e . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
One more thing, the White structure in the top-right may look ridiculous with all the cutting points that it contains, but the strcture is not entirely horrible. The point is that it takes time to capture any of these loose stones, and each such capture strengthens the stones that remain. Here is one example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . 5 O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O , X . . 3 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 2 1 O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
This series of moves gives Black 10 points, or so, but it also gives White sente and a great deal of influence toward the right side and toward the center. As White, I'd welcome such a capture by Black.

Furthermore, note also that the group Black ended up with in the top right is not efficient at all. The group could have 2 stones fewer without suffering too many adverse effects.

Finally, White made the exchange in sente. Hence, things aren't quite as "rotten in the state of Denmark" as they may seem, as Shakespeare might have said.

P.S. topazg makes his moves very quickly. I found it very hard to resist the urge to move as quickly as he does. However, my game suffers greatly if I don't allow myself adequate amount of time to think over my moves. Thus, I'll try to avoid making this mistake in the future.

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:11 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 Prisoners: :w1: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . 2 . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O , X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X O X . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Not much to say here. I don't really understand White's plan, but I'll just connect here. I don't think Black has anything to be unhappy about globally, so I'll let White be the one leaving weaknesses.

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:54 am
by The Intrepid
I think I can get a good result (which is thickness toward the outside) if I respond here. I'll verify all the lines, though, and post later today.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X 1 . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O , X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:42 am
by The Intrepid
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 Prisoners: :w1: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X 1 . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O , X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X O X . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It's about to get complicated. topazg has two chices, as far as I can see.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Choice 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O 1 X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 2 . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Choice 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O . X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . 2 1 . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |[/go]

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:06 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 Prisoners: :w1: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X 1 . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O 2 X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X O X . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Cut. Never let White play here.

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:30 am
by The Intrepid
I think this move by topazg is a mistake. I did not finish reading out the other one, but this one is too simple for White. I'll double check quickly, but I believe things look bad for Black in either of the following two variations.

In the first one, I could decide between "a" and "b."
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X 2 X O a . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O X X . . b O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 1 . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X 3 X O 2 . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O X X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 1 . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
In the second one, Black still has to waste a move to protect against "c."
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . c X X O X 6 X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X 7 O X X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:57 am
by Uberdude
@The Intrpeid:
The Intrepid wrote:I think this move by topazg is a mistake.
No, it is the only move. Anything else is absolutely awful. I would expect even a 20 kyu to get this right.

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:06 am
by The Intrepid
Uberdude wrote:@The Intrpeid:
The Intrepid wrote:I think this move by topazg is a mistake.
No, it is the only move. Anything else is absolutely awful. I would expect even a 20 kyu to get this right.
:D And, yet, I was not sure of the outcome after this move. I'll have to look at it later. Congrats on beating breakfast, by the way. :clap:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O . X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 1 . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |[/go]

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:36 am
by Uberdude
@The Intrepid:
k16 was the only move for black, and is now the only move for white and he can't get a bad result.

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:43 am
by The Intrepid
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Prisoners: :w1: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O X X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 1 . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X O X . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm no longer sure that Black has to connect in the variation I cited earlier. I'll need to read it some more tomorrow, if topazg goes for it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X C X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O X X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:51 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Prisoners: :w1: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O X X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 1 . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X O X . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Shape, and White's left with another cut threat around H14 that does nothing right now, but is still bad aji.

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:54 am
by Uberdude
53 is the good move Intrepid missed in his reading (but I thought I shouldn't mention it in case it stops him playing j15): it defends against both h17 and l17 and means white achieved little here.
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