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#215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weeds

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=8305

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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:31 am
by The Intrepid
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 Prisoners: :b6: , :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . O O X . . X O O . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . O O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . X O X . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X X X O X . O . |
$$ | X . X . . X X . O O X X O O O X X . 1 |
$$ | O X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | 2 O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O X |
$$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
What I played was an overplay, and I was going to follow it up with an even bigger overplay. Objectively best was to take the ko. At that point, I should connect (losing two points), but I was going to play this, with hopes of seeing :b3: after which White is alive:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . O O X . . X O O . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . O O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . X O X . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X . X O 6 . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X . . X X O X 4 |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X X X O X . O . |
$$ | X . X . . X X . O O X X O O O X X 5 2 |
$$ | C X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X 3 |
$$ | 1 O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O X |
$$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, instead of the :b3: above, Black could play :b3: at "a" or, better yet, capture another stone on the left. If White fails to respond, Black would kill the entire White group there. As a result, Black gets significantly more points on the left than he loses on the right.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . O O X . . X O O . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . O O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . X O X . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X X X O X . O . |
$$ | X . X . . X X . O O X X O O O X X a O |
$$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X 4 |
$$ | X C X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O X |
$$ | O 3 O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . 5 O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Despite this, Black's lead is large enough that he might as well not care at all about gaining additional points. To the contrary, it is perhaps best to avoid any complications whatsoever. As I said before, a loss by 10 points gives the same 0:1 as does a loss by 100 points. A corresponding tautology holds true with regard to winning.

Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:34 am
by skydyr
@The Intrepid
The Intrepid wrote:Despite this, Black's lead is large enough that he might as well not care at all about gaining additional points. To the contrary, it is perhaps best to avoid any complications whatsoever. As I said before, a loss by 10 points gives the same 0:1 as does a loss by 100 points. A corresponding tautology holds true with regard to winning.


So, to put it bluntly, why is this game still ongoing?

Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:40 am
by The Intrepid
@skydyr
I was going to resign after failing to live on the right side but, as I said before, I decided to give drishti some endgame practice. He does make small mistakes here and there, so he'll learn more if we play this game out to the end than if I simply give up. I play with him almost every week, so the quicker he improves, the better. Besides, there are possibly some observers who likewise might learn from the remainder of the endgame. Basically, the result of the game is a foregone conclusion, but winning is not the only reason people sit down to play a game--especially a 9-stone handicap one like here.

Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 1:35 pm
by skydyr
@The Intrepid
The Intrepid wrote:@skydyr
I was going to resign after failing to live on the right side but, as I said before, I decided to give drishti some endgame practice. He does make small mistakes here and there, so he'll learn more if we play this game out to the end than if I simply give up. I play with him almost every week, so the quicker he improves, the better. Besides, there are possibly some observers who likewise might learn from the remainder of the endgame. Basically, the result of the game is a foregone conclusion, but winning is not the only reason people sit down to play a game--especially a 9-stone handicap one like here.


That makes a lot of sense.

Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:53 pm
by Bill Spight
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 Bigger reverse sente
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . . |
$$ | X O . O O X . . X O O . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . O O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . X O X . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X X X O X . O . |
$$ | X . X . . X X . O O X X O O O X X . 1 |
$$ | O X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O X |
$$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Still the bigger reverse sente. 3 pts. vs. 1 2/3 pts.

Edit: Unhidden.

Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:07 pm
by illluck
Also, when the outcome is so clear analysing the endgame is a bit meaningless - black will play unnecessary moves since they don't matter.

Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:37 pm
by Bill Spight
illluck wrote:Also, when the outcome is so clear analysing the endgame is a bit meaningless - black will play unnecessary moves since they don't matter.


Spoken like a true bot. ;)

My apologies. But bots can play the endgame as though they did not care. ;)

One of the golfing greats (I think it was Gene Sarazen), like many others, started out as a caddy. Reflecting on a pressure putt that he had sunk to win the US Open, he remembered when, as a kid, he would play with the other caddies, and when they were putting, they would say, "This is for the US Open." That youthful practice, he said, put him in a good frame of mind to make the pressure putt for the US Open.

If you want to play a good endgame when it matters, play a good endgame when it doesn't.

See also this thread. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8312

Edit: Unhidden.

Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:37 pm
by The Intrepid
I emailed drishti to ask him whether he wishes to continue playing. From his perspective, there is no need. As such, I resign. Thanks for the game. I enjoyed it! :D Given my antics during the game, I expect the hide tags to be epic. Let's get to it.:)

Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:47 pm
by The Intrepid
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . 1 . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]

Wow, that is so cool! Thanks for that. I learned something. :) Actually, I remained blind to N18 throughout the game. I did not see that P19 is sente for Black in the final position (I was not calculating in that direction and simply assumed it is 2 points gote).

Also, it seems the folk were initially incredulous that I was as far behind as I thought I was. I'll try to post an sgf file with how I think the endgame should have been played out, and maybe someone can set me straight.

Great comments, by the way! :bow:

Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:37 am
by drishti
I just went back through all the hidden posts. Great comments! Thank you for those. Lots of laughs... The Intrepid is devious! :lol:

I'm embarrassed that I missed the whole P19 situation even to the end. I knew there was something up there, but M12 was the best I could come up with. F18 and J18 were also attempts at making my way over there, but clearly there were better tactics. Thanks again!
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