[go]$$Bcm57 $$ -------------------------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . .| $$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .| $$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .| $$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ok, he decided to give me the option of living instead of Ko. I'll keep that in my back pocket. If he had played the Ko, I would use moves like the one I just played as Ko threats.
Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:24 pm
by The Intrepid
It's interesting that Kirby decided to play here now, given that this move wasn't going away anywere anytime soon. Maybe he played this as a probe to see how I'll respond. I'm considering these moves in response:
$$Bc $$ -------------------------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O X . . .| $$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .| $$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .| $$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X O .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X a . . X . X .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bc $$ -------------------------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O . 2 . .| $$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .| $$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X 1 .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X W X .| $$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Having the ability to start a ko there at some point would be good, but I'd rather force White to connect on the first line while I eliminate in sente. After is no more, the right wall of my moyo will be most thick, significantly reducing White's chances to successfully invade my moyo in the center.
I dont see, why 2 makes a ko..
$$Bc $$ -------------------------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 5 3 .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O . 2 . .| $$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .| $$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X 1 .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X W X .| $$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bc $$ -------------------------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 7 .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O . 8 3 6| $$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O 9| $$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X 1 4| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X W X .| $$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
No clue, If this line is any good, but looks like ko to me
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:22 am
by EdLee
$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . X O . 2 . . | $$ . . X X O O O . | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . X O . 2 . . | $$ . . X X O O O . | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . . . 5 . | $$ . . X O . 2 . 4 | $$ . . X X O O O 3 | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . . . 5 . | $$ . . X O . 2 . 4 | $$ . . X X O O O 3 | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . 2 . . . | $$ . . X O . . . . | $$ . . X X O O O . | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . 2 . . . | $$ . . X O . . . . | $$ . . X X O O O . | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . 2 . 5 . | $$ . . X O . . . 4 | $$ . . X X O O O 3 | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . 2 . 5 . | $$ . . X O . . . 4 | $$ . . X X O O O 3 | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
Re:
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:59 am
by Schachus
EdLee wrote:
$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . X O . 2 . . | $$ . . X X O O O . | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . X O . 2 . . | $$ . . X X O O O . | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . . . 5 . | $$ . . X O . 2 . 4 | $$ . . X X O O O 3 | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . . . 5 . | $$ . . X O . 2 . 4 | $$ . . X X O O O 3 | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . 2 . . . | $$ . . X O . . . . | $$ . . X X O O O . | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . 2 . . . | $$ . . X O . . . . | $$ . . X X O O O . | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . 2 . 5 . | $$ . . X O . . . 4 | $$ . . X X O O O 3 | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . 2 . 5 . | $$ . . X O . . . 4 | $$ . . X X O O O 3 | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
It would help if you would comment on your moves. For the first one, why does exchanging the hane before placement help compared to my line? For the second one, you seem to be right it's dead, no ko(so I'm stil mystified, where the players saw ko. Edit: maybe descent?).
Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:48 am
by explo
@Schachus
I don't think the hane makes a difference in your first diagram. If white plays hane before the hanging connection he's actually alive. White can play it in the game because it threatens to connect to the other group. If white doesn't play the hane first he's dead as EdLee showed. There is a ko if white plays the descent.
Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:51 am
by Schachus
explo wrote:@Schachus
I don't think the hane makes a difference in your first diagram. If white plays hane before the hanging connection he's actually alive. White can play it in the game because it threatens to connect to the other group. If white doesn't play the hane first he's dead as EdLee showed. There is a ko if white plays the descent.
I had that idea too, but I dont think hane first really helps, cause black can just hane back to prevent the connection and after tigermouth eds variation still works as before. Maybe you need to play descent instead of tigermouth?
Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:03 am
by explo
You're right, I spoke too quickly. When white plays hane, it doesn't change the status if black can block. If black can only draw back, white is alive.
$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . X O . . 6 . | $$ . . X X O O O 5 | $$ . . . . X X 1 2 | $$ . . . . . . 3 . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . X O . . 6 . | $$ . . X X O O O 5 | $$ . . . . X X 1 2 | $$ . . . . . . 3 . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
This is alive.
$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . 2 . 3 4 . | $$ . . X O . . 5 6 | $$ . . X X O O O . | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ . . . 2 . 3 4 . | $$ . . X O . . 5 6 | $$ . . X X O O O . | $$ . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X O X . | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . O X O . | $$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
This is one way to start the ko.
Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:34 am
by The Intrepid
$$Bcm59 $$ -------------------------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O X . . .| $$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .| $$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .| $$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm61 $$ -------------------------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O X . . .| $$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .| $$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .| $$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . O X O .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I got all this thickness, it'd be a real shame to just let it go. I don't see an easy way for White to live in the center without forcing me to capture the R14 stone, so the corner should die cleanly anyway.
Incidentally, maybe playing at Q18 was premature (move 57). It was probably bigger to reinforce the moyo somewhere. Oh well ...
Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:36 am
by Kirby
$$Bcm61 $$ -------------------------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O X . . .| $$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .| $$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .| $$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X O .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . , 2 X . O . X O . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .| $$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .| $$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ ---------------------------------------
in sente. After 
I don't see an easy way for White to live in the center without forcing me to capture the R14 stone, so the corner should die cleanly anyway.