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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:38 pm
by Kirby
Some general points to learn from this game:
  1. Let up a little bit on the pressure when the position can be reasonable for me.
  2. Consider alternatives to joseki I play by habit. In this case, maybe pressuring the left stone more would have been better.
  3. Learn from 'TheCaptain': When I have a goal to accomplish, think about solving it indirectly - create a weakness in the opponent's shape first, then exploit it (for example).
I think that's what I should focus on for now.

Nonetheless, I was honored to play a legend today :-)

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 2:18 am
by EdLee
Hi Kirby,
Consider alternatives to joseki I play by habit
This is good.

Mr. Ishida said in his introduction to the basic joseki dictionary ( paraphrasing ) that it is his "belief there are no joseki for the 4-4 star point ); this was written 40 years before AlphaGo, and we may be coming full circle.

( IMO 'digesting' a joseki involves eventually forgetting the joseki. :) )

Please see also ( 04:05 ~ 05:50 ): :)

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:55 am
by Bill Spight
Kirby wrote:Some general points to learn from this game:
  1. Let up a little bit on the pressure when the position can be reasonable for me.
  2. Consider alternatives to joseki I play by habit. In this case, maybe pressuring the left stone more would have been better.
  3. Learn from 'TheCaptain': When I have a goal to accomplish, think about solving it indirectly - create a weakness in the opponent's shape first, then exploit it (for example).
I think that's what I should focus on for now.

Nonetheless, I was honored to play a legend today :-)
Reading this, How Not to Play Chess by Znosko-Borovsky came to mind.
Znosko-Borovosky wrote: Do not create weak points in your game for your enemy to seize.

Do not make the opening moves automatically and without reflection.

Do not be content with attacking an existing weakness; always seek to create others.
:)

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:00 am
by Bill Spight
Hi, Ed!

Thanks for the Fujizawa Hideyuki clip. Maybe I should take up smoking and drinking. ;)

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:43 am
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . X . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X X X B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
YOUR CORNER IS UNSETTLED

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:49 am
by Uberdude
Shaddy wrote: YOUR CORNER IS UNSETTLED
But is f1 a clever way to settle it in sente (trying to get d1 sente)?

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:54 am
by Kirby
Shaddy wrote: YOUR CORNER IS UNSETTLED
True. If I reflect honestly about this, I did have a feeling that the corner could be in trouble, but I didn't read it out clearly. It feels difficult to give up initiative and to play a move to save it, though.

Maybe Uberdude's idea is a good way to save it in sente.

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:55 am
by Kirby
Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:Some general points to learn from this game:
  1. Let up a little bit on the pressure when the position can be reasonable for me.
  2. Consider alternatives to joseki I play by habit. In this case, maybe pressuring the left stone more would have been better.
  3. Learn from 'TheCaptain': When I have a goal to accomplish, think about solving it indirectly - create a weakness in the opponent's shape first, then exploit it (for example).
I think that's what I should focus on for now.

Nonetheless, I was honored to play a legend today :-)
Reading this, How Not to Play Chess by Znosko-Borovsky came to mind.
Znosko-Borovosky wrote: Do not create weak points in your game for your enemy to seize.

Do not make the opening moves automatically and without reflection.

Do not be content with attacking an existing weakness; always seek to create others.
:)
Surprisingly similar! :-)

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:56 am
by Shaddy
It looks working. I wanted to be sure he knew, though

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:17 pm
by Kirby
Inspired by all of the fancy AlphaGo matchups this week, I took another look at the nature paper (which I still haven't fully digested, by the way). I was particularly interested in the input feature selection for the neural networks. As I understand, these are deep neural networks, so learning from the initial feature vector may serve as some sort of first layer, but then subsequent layers, in a way, chunk the information into more complex learned concepts.

Anyway, it seemed informative to me to look at the initial set of features, since these may form a basis of AlphaGo's initial learning - or birth into the world of go, perhaps :blackeye:

The table is listed here:
Feature# of planesDescription
Stone colour3Player stone / opponent stone / empty
Ones1A constant plane filled with 1
Turns since8How many turns since a move was played
Liberties8Number of liberties (empty adjacent points)
Capture size8How many opponent stones would be captured
Self-atari size8How many of own stones would be captured
Liberties after move8Number of liberties after this move is played
Ladder capture1Whether a move at this point is a successful ladder capture
Ladder escape1Whether a move at this point is a successful ladder escape
Sensibleness1Whether a move is legal and does not fill its own eyes
Zeros1A constant plane filled with 0
Player color1Whether current player is black
For some reason, the bolded entries above having to do with liberties, stick out to me. Capture size, self-atari size, player color, etc., seem somewhat obvious to me, but sometimes knowing the number of liberties for a group is non-intuitive at a glance. Specifically, in many cases, I do not typically consciously count out the number of liberties that a group has. It's more about my feeling than anything else. I get a "feeling" about the count of liberties based on experience. Consciously counting the literal number of liberties is sometimes not useful, since there are corner situations, eye-no-eye situations, and other complexities that make the practical number of liberties different than the "real" number of liberties. Richard Hunter has an interesting book on this, but I haven't internalized all of the rules he lays out.

Most of the time, my process for identifying strength of groups and/or winners of capturing races is either:
  1. Feeling (e.g. "this group feels stronger than that group")
  2. Visualization of a capturing sequence (e.g. "black, white, black, white, ..., ok, black is captured")
Presumably, AlphaGo's interpretation of liberties initially started out from the initial feature - literal number of empty spots around a group. Then, through different layers of the network, maybe it internalized some mechanism of giving a good value to a position, still based partially on the literal liberty count.

From this, I wonder if it is worthwhile to add a new item to my methodology, above, for identifying strong groups and/or winners of capturing races:
  • 3. Count actual empty spaces around a group of stones, understanding that certain circumstances may imply a different result.
Because it seems that AlphaGo would still use the feature in its basic form for evaluating a position. Maybe I should add that to my basic set of inputs as well.

Or maybe this is just one way that computers think differently than humans...

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:25 pm
by EdLee
Hi Kirby,
Count actual empty spaces around a group of stones, understanding that certain circumstances may imply a different result.
I think this first sense of Liberty is necessary but insufficient; the key is the second sense of Liberty.

Re:

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:40 pm
by Kirby
EdLee wrote:Hi Kirby,
Count actual empty spaces around a group of stones, understanding that certain circumstances may imply a different result.
I think this first sense of Liberty is necessary but insufficient; the key is the second sense of Liberty.
Agreed. What I'm trying to express is that I typically pay attention to the second sense of liberties either by feeling from experience and/or explicitly visualizing, for example, a capturing sequence. I think that this focus on the second sense of liberties has been beneficial.

Up until now, however, I've pretty much completely ignored the first sense of liberties - it didn't matter to me, unless I was explaining someone the rules of the game.

What I'm curious about is if it may be worthwhile to explicitly think about the first sense of liberties as well, since this appears to be an input feature to the neural networks that AlphaGo uses.

Up until now, only thye second sense mattered to me. But I wonder if it's worthwhile reconsidering my views - maybe not, but since it's something AlphaGo uses as input, I'm second guessing myself.

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:47 pm
by EdLee
Hi Kirby,

I agree ( and recently came to similar conclusions, completely independent of DM ). One way to test the theory is experiment and note the results. :mrgreen:

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:44 pm
by EdLee
Hi Bill :)

No to smoking; drinking in moderation. :mrgreen:

Watching AlphaGo v. pro team, live :)
IMG_0023.PNG
IMG_0023.PNG (466.12 KiB) Viewed 12757 times

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:31 am
by Schachus
I think this is for enableing lines of thought like: "let me save this sente exchange for later, since it could potentially induce a damezumari on my part later". So moves are considered more carefully, if they reduce the liberties of the group they belong to and I think for that even a straightforward "count the empty spaces around the group after my move" can help to get a picture, whether liberties might get short(remember this network is "just for intuition", reading comes in differently). I doubt this has a more involved liberty count, because it needs to be done in preprocessing, before giving the position to the NN.