Life In 19x19

Hi all:

I wonder if anyone has shared my experience, which probably many of you will not believe. I play at least 4 and possibly 5 stones weaker online than in my over the board games. This not related to timing either, as I own and regularly use a digital clock in my over the board games.

The disparity has been validated to such an extent that I am convinced there is no self-deception at work. I regularly play and beat 2 and 3 kyu kgs players over the board and win. I play my 2 dan kgs friend over the board with 2 stones competitively. In the local go club I attend in Beijing, I play the (self described )1 dans even and do win games. I play the 2 and 3 dans even as well, and lose, but not embarassingly.

On KGS I am 7k.

At my local go club, I give my friend, a well established KGS 7k, 3 stones without much difficulty.

This is a familiar pattern for me. When I was a teenager studying chess, I was around 1950 - 2000 USCF, battle tested in many tournaments, and my ICC blitz rating would hover around 1700. I have never been able to concentrate on the online game; I feel I can't or don't read well on the 2D screen, and of course it is much easier to be impulsive. In my KGS games, I am often amassing overwhelming positions, 30 - 40+ point leads in the middlegame, and then playing long strings of serious tactical howlers that would be absolutely unthinkable over the board. Reviewing the games is worthless because it is not a strength issue; I am very aware that I am playing horrible moves as I play them or shortly after.

Has anyone ever had a similar problem? I believe it is primarily psychological and then partially related to 2D / 3D perception and the differing stimuli of playing with stones and goban vs playing on a computer.

Everyone suffers from this. It's just the lack of "pressure" from online games. There is really no benefit for playing seriously online right now. They are not worth anything. So I think it's normal for you to be this way. In all honesty, it's just a lot more enjoyable in person anyways. I think once you get used to it(people like to overplay a lot more online), you'll probably get stronger overall. I would say that you should not worry about it too much.

cdybeijing wrote:Has anyone ever had a similar problem?

I'm the opposite. It seems with opponents over the board with enough time to think things through they don't fall for my bullying. Online I get away with overplays a lot more. I believe the solution for me would be to find a way to get away with overplay over the board too.

For me it's the same as for CarlJung. I see the shapes better and read faster online. In addition the timesettings I play with online are usually significantly shorter than in offline games, and in slow games my opponents don't fall for my attacks.

Everybody is different in that regard. I know an EGF-1d-player who is only 9k on DGS (i.e. around my strength), so over the board he could probably give me six stones. On DGS and OGS I could beat two other players that have beaten me on tournaments. You're not alone, so don't worry too much.

I ahev opposite. I can concentrate from the begining to the end at kgs, but in serious tournament I tend to make blunders when I am far ahead.

Last torunament I've killed 6 goups of much weaker enemy, and then made several blunders wchich made his 4 groups live. I won by 15 points, but you see the scale of it o_0.

There are many reasons why this can be the case between OTB and turn based servers, but I have never understood it for real time. I'm not saying it isn't true, I know a lot of people it is true for in both directions, and it must really suck, it just doesn't seem to happen to me. The 2d / 3d thing makes some sense - maybe play with longer time controls online and have a real board next to you that you use to actually play the game, simply using the screen as a relay - I know some people find this useful.

topazg wrote:There are many reasons why this can be the case between OTB and turn based servers, but I have never understood it for real time. I'm not saying it isn't true, I know a lot of people it is true for in both directions, and it must really suck, it just doesn't seem to happen to me. The 2d / 3d thing makes some sense - maybe play with longer time controls online and have a real board next to you that you use to actually play the game, simply using the screen as a relay - I know some people find this useful.

If you're used to playing slowly online, then there's probably not a difference. For most people - me included - online games are faster.

I have no possibilities of playing F2F games, and enjoy playing online with a board, playing games of roughly 45 min per player. I look at the board, place my stone, then click, and so on.

kirkmc wrote:playing games of roughly 45 min per player.

I cringe at the thought of such slow play.

CarlJung wrote:

kirkmc wrote:playing games of roughly 45 min per player.

I cringe at the thought of such slow play.

Such a long time investment against a complete stranger does seem rather weird, I would never play such games, unless it was in a KGS tournament. In OTB games, especially tournament games, long time settings are great. I have not yet played games with more than one hour main time, but in those, I usually go into byoyomi.

topazg wrote:have a real board next to you that you use to actually play the game, simply using the screen as a relay - I know some people find this useful.

I do find this useful, but not so much from the 2d/3d thing, I do it because it slows me down, and helps me concentrate on the opening and middle game, rather than clicking the first likely spot. Unfortunately, one cannot really play a full game in this way, and ultimately, you'll be playing on the screen (unless you're very patient, and have very long time controls), so if you really have 2d/3d problems, you may still struggle.

I also do it because getting stronger at OTB is my real goal, so if there really are 2d/3d specializations, then I wouldn't want to focus on the 2d side.

CarlJung wrote:

kirkmc wrote:playing games of roughly 45 min per player.

I cringe at the thought of such slow play.

Wow, really? It's so much more interesting.

quantumf wrote:

CarlJung wrote:

kirkmc wrote:playing games of roughly 45 min per player.

I cringe at the thought of such slow play.

Such a long time investment against a complete stranger does seem rather weird, I would never play such games, unless it was in a KGS tournament. In OTB games, especially tournament games, long time settings are great. I have not yet played games with more than one hour main time, but in those, I usually go into byoyomi.

I don't play "strangers" like that - I play those games with a few friends I have on KGS who like playing slow games too.

kirkmc wrote:I don't play "strangers" like that - I play those games with a few friends I have on KGS who like playing slow games too.

Sounds good to me. It would be nice to have some rivals like that on KGS. But that's not the typical model, where people put up a game for anyone to challenge (or are themselves challengers).

cdybeijing,

It could be that when you play face-to-face, you gain some information by reading your opponent's body language? That's a real skill too, but unfortunately can't be used online.