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After a common joseki

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After a common joseki

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 12:20 pm
by Ares89
Greetings,

I was recently introduced to a sequence(after joseki) to a fairly common joseki.
However I have gotten mixed feedback on which sequence that can be considered better/correct.

The sequence starts with move :w1: in the next diagram.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
I was first taught that black should not answer with :b2: because of this the hane at :w3: which leads to a common double ladder situation.
At that time I was taught that this is the correct sequence for black & white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,[/go]
This was the sequence I was taught was the strongest for back to play.
Later I was "re-taught" that black :b2: is the best option because of the sequence shown in the next diagram.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . a 2 X . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 X O O 4 . . . .
$$ | . . O X 1 6 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , 7 . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
(or :b5: @ "a")
Personally this seems like a really good result for black. White do however get some center influence.
When I looked at a GoDatabase with pro games, it seems this was the most common way of playing out the sequence.
Over to some full board positions played in a recent game, three stones handicap against 2dan EGF. I played black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X a . . , . . O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
People who have tried to review the opening disagree here. Some say that :b1: is a good move, others think "b" looks a lot better.
I played :b1: in the fear of the weakness at "a" and at the time thought that it would lead to similar result as shown in the next diagram.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X 1 . 5 , . . O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . X . 4 3 . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X O X . , . . O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . X . . O X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I'm also worried this helps white to much protecting the weakness at a/b
Is there anything I am missing, maybe a sequence which is more common that I have missed?
What is to expect and which of the two sequences looks better for black? Locally and globally?

Thanks for any feedback.

- Ares89

Re: After a common joseki

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 12:39 pm
by oca
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
In this variation, why not :b6: ? is it a bad move ?

In that one, I suppose this is what we call a table shape... a good shape is it ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 X O O 4 . . . .
$$ | . . O B B O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . B , B . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 12:49 pm
by EdLee
Ares89 wrote:I was first taught that black should not answer with
Hi Ares, who taught you ? What was (were) the level(s) of the person(s) who taught you these things ?

Re: After a common joseki

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 1:42 pm
by Ares89
EdLee wrote:
Ares89 wrote:I was first taught that black should not answer with
Hi Ares, who taught you ? What was (were) the level(s) of the person(s) who taught you these things ?
To tell the truth, I'm not 100% sure.
If I remember correctly, call me out if I'm mistaken, I do think I saw this in one of SandStorm3[AGA 5dan/KGS 4dan] lectures.
The second variation I was told that Hwang In-seong[8dan EGF?] had taught in one of his lectures. Which I do not have access to.

Edit: It was in SandStorm's lectures, he did not directly say that the move was bad,
but the way he presented it, it seemed like that was what he was trying to express.
Showing what I mean in the spoiler below:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . a . . . .
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . . . . .
$$ | . 3 O X 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
This way white get a free wall, and black is pushed one line down.
May follow up at "a".
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . 7 3 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 X 4 6 . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . . . . .
$$ | . X O X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
White takes corner.

Therefore he showed the variations I showed earlier in the thread, and said that it was more common
way of playing.
oca wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
In this variation, why not :b6: ? is it a bad move ?

In that one, I suppose this is what we call a table shape... a good shape is it ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 X O O 4 . . . .
$$ | . . O B B O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . B , B . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . 7 3 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 X 4 6 . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . . . . .
$$ | . 2 O X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Oca I believe this is the reason for why black should not play like that.

Re: After a common joseki

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:00 pm
by Ares89
After looking at more pro games it seems there are a little mistake in my diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . a . . . . . .
$$ | . Y O X . . . . . .
$$ | . X X O O O . . . .
$$ | . . O X X O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , X . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
To play at the marked stones instead of "a" seems to be more common.
However I have seen pro games which where "a" is played.
Some links to similar pro games:

Re: After a common joseki

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 2:50 pm
by Uberdude
You can't say hane under or nobi is correct, it depends on the position. There is also the option of hane on top. With hane under and then push up after the cut you can connect and keep the territory but white gets thickness. With nobi you get split (bad in your game) but don't fall behind in influence. How much you can profit from the fight after nobi depends on the rest of the board. As for your game, :b1: is much too slow and non-urgent. Without thinking much I like the 2 space pincer on the top side.

Re: After a common joseki

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 6:04 pm
by Bantari
Brings back memories.
When I was starting playing Go, this way of playing was very common, happened a lot. Especially after those two joseki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
and
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . X . O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
The game often went something like that:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . X . O . . . O
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 X . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 5 . . . . .
$$ | . 8 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Or the admittedly less severe but still possibly playable:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 X . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 5 . . . . .
$$ | . 8 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
The idea was to mess up Black's side a little while getting outside influence in sente. Sort-of similar to Black's plan in the below diagram.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O 6 2 O .
$$ | . . . X . 3 4 1 . ,
$$ | . . . . . . 5 7 . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . , , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
But I have not seen such plays in ages, and so never really thought much about the viability. When i was playing this myself I was too weak to really evaluate, and later my ideas became a little more complex (or even convoluted, depending on who you ask.)
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