Life In 19x19

Took me a couple of months and I've managed to read most of the material archived on this forum (all the sub-sections). I've noticed that most people here have a great sense of humour and a deep appreciation for the game!

As getting to dan level seems a recurring topic here, I thought I'd share my perspective.

I've invested twenty years into chess - studied literature, problem books, professional games, played in the chess club at school growing up etc. I win almost all games against the people I come across.

As I read the numerous threads in which people talked about their desire to reach dan level, it was obvious that they thought they could not enjoy themselves to the fullest if their skill was below that level.

So what I wanted to say is that I'm a lot better at chess now than when I started, so by the logic above I should be getting more enjoyment out of the game.

These days though, I've discovered Chinese chess and even though I don't know any strategy at all beyond the rules and am a complete beginner I still enjoy it more than chess. So there you go, just because you're more skillful at one game than another doesn't mean you will enjoy it more, just because you're shodan doesn't mean there isn't some enthusiastic kyu player that loves the game more.

teancoffee wrote:it was obvious that they thought they could not enjoy themselves to the fullest if their skill was below that level.

Hi Tea&coffee, interesting, may I ask how you came to this conclusion ?
Because that's not my impression (in Go or in any other field),
so maybe I overlooked some evidence that you found ? Thanks.

Interesting observation!

Of course the enjoyment of the game is very subjective. As you gain strength you will apply different mental concepts to the game of go and they will all make you enjoy go in a different way.

In the beginning you were convinced that every move could work. This made you feel good when playing go, because really, it did feel like art. On the other hand you could not even really appreciate 'good' moves, because lack of reading and strategic concepts just meant there was no framework to appreciate them with.

Then you improve. You might learn about things like thickness, territory versus influence, direction of play. These concepts might seem easy to understand and you will try to apply these concepts in your games. Before you play out joseki, you think things like 'Mmm... should I go for influence of territory here?'. You will appreciate go even more because you think the understanding of these strategic concepts determine who wins the battle of wits.

Then you improve, you start to understand good shape and your understanding of strategic concepts deepens. As such you can start to appreciate the beauty of moves more and more. One day, when playing through a professional game, you realize that their local reading is near perfect. You realize that even when you disregard most strategic concepts (Tygem anyone?) better local reading will win you games. Reading will enable you to see whether a defensive move is really necessary, whether that group in the corner has two eyes or you can kill it if surrounded. And you start to focus on tsumego and do a couple of sets on goproblems.com every day.

In the end, you never know if improving will demystify the game of go or make it even more deep than your last level of understanding. All you know is that it will be a different game today than it was yesterday.

Some players enjoy the game equally much regardless of their strength. As a weak player, one has the greater freedom to play what one wants (because one does not have to worry why every move is wrong) and can enjoy the thought to become stronger somet ime. As a strong player, one has the greater insight to understand deeper strategies and can enjoy the achievement to have already become a stronger player. Reasons for joy vary (so no need to die), but joy is always possible!

Ah, yes, a point I forgot to make.

I for one have not seen any evidence of reaching dan level in go will provide you with the gift (curse?) of immortality. Please be advised.

EdLee wrote:

teancoffee wrote:it was obvious that they thought they could not enjoy themselves to the fullest if their skill was below that level.

Hi Tea&coffee, interesting, may I ask how you came to this conclusion ?
Because that's not my impression (in Go or in any other field),
so maybe I overlooked some evidence that you found ? Thanks.

Basically just a lot of people over the years posted complaining about not advancing fast enough. A lot of people mentioning "I wanna get to this level dan, that level dan".

teancoffee wrote:

EdLee wrote:

teancoffee wrote:it was obvious that they thought they could not enjoy themselves to the fullest if their skill was below that level.

Hi Tea&coffee, interesting, may I ask how you came to this conclusion ?
Because that's not my impression (in Go or in any other field),
so maybe I overlooked some evidence that you found ? Thanks.

Basically just a lot of people over the years posted complaining about not advancing fast enough. A lot of people mentioning "I wanna get to this level dan, that level dan".

6d by 2015 or die.

teancoffee wrote:it was obvious that they thought they could not enjoy themselves to the fullest if their skill was below that level.

teancoffee wrote:Basically just a lot of people over the years posted complaining about not advancing fast enough. A lot of people mentioning "I wanna get to this level dan, that level dan".

Yes, the complaining part is obvious; but what about the underlined part ?
Yes, they complain, but what makes you think they think they cannot enjoy the game unless they reach a certain level ? What evidence ?

The observation is not that provoking such that it requires evidence. Give the guy a break. All he says is: people are complaining about their level, clearly they don't enjoy it as much as they could, but believe me, improvement is no guarantee for joy.

The flaw in the argument is that being relatively stronger in one game than in another doesn't say anything about the joy of improvement. So yes, Go can be more enjoyable than Chess even if you are relatively stronger at Chess (tell us about it!) but still becoming better in Go can make it more enjoyable.

Robert has a point too: for some people it becomes less enjoyable. I'm sure this is true for many pros, who depend on it for a living. I'll always remember the quote by Cho Chikun. "Cho sensei, tell us why you love go so much?" - "Love go so much? I hate go!"

Knotwilg wrote:The observation is not that provoking such that it requires evidence. Give the guy a break. All he says is: people are complaining about their level, clearly they don't enjoy it as much as they could, but believe me, improvement is no guarantee for joy.

The flaw in the argument is that being relatively stronger in one game than in another doesn't say anything about the joy of improvement. So yes, Go can be more enjoyable than Chess even if you are relatively stronger at Chess (tell us about it!) but still becoming better in Go can make it more enjoyable.

Robert has a point too: for some people it becomes less enjoyable. I'm sure this is true for many pros, who depend on it for a living. I'll always remember the quote by Cho Chikun. "Cho sensei, tell us why you love go so much?" - "Love go so much? I hate go!"

All very true I feel.

I would not say that it is a natural human trait to want to be better at everything than one currently is. But it does seem to be a societal norm which has been driven into most of us since birth. The kyu/dan division is a natural break and so a natural level to aim at. But what about the gup system in Korea, where 1 gup was the highest amateur rank? What level did those players strive for?

Also don't forget that the improving in itself can be rewarding, so it might not be the rank that gives the fun, but rather the gathering of knowledge/technique to get there. As DrStraw said I think 1D is often used as a reference point because of the kyu/dan breakpoint, not really because that's the point where everyone thinks he will be happy.

A side comment. I would like to disillusion you of the belief that being a dan player and dying are mutually exclusive. I still die all over the place.

Knotwilg wrote:I'll always remember the quote by Cho Chikun. "Cho sensei, tell us why you love go so much?" - "Love go so much? I hate go!"

Obviously don't take that quote seriously at all. Cho has a very good sense of humor.

I seem to get the general impression that a number of people feel they won't enjoy the game to the fullest without reaching dan level as well, though nothing concrete to base that feeling on.

The oddity though is that the stronger you get the less you feel you know!

PeterN