Life In 19x19

I have mostly been a SmartGo user, including its iOS app for the occasional bedtime tsumego solving and pro game replaying. But having seen the constant updates from Go Eye on his app, I figure I should look into the alternatives and see what they provide. Below is my review:

First off, I have to say that it is certainly not a very beautiful app. I am not a design expert, but it's almost an eyesore to see zero consistency in the color theme. The control bar below is an ugly gray that does not work at all with the Go board and the iOS-themed navibar on top. Compare with SmartGo's color layout: Attempting to integrate with my social media is also a big turnoff: When I decline Facebook integration, I get an error every time I take a screen shot (which does not show up in the screenshot itself except the one shown above; the error message is: "Facebook request error - The Operation couldn't be completed. (com.facebook.sdk error 2.)"). This is just one of several bugs I have found with GoEye. For instance, if you press the circle X at the top navibar at the beginning of a game, it erases the entire game. But if you press it a second time, it crashes the app. This leads me to believe that the UI was not extensively tested. And why does a Go app use a web browser to fetch games? It is a bit bizarre that I can go on reddit through Go Eye. The entire system for fetching SGFs online is very hack-ish and tribal.

A feature that Go Eye provides apart from Smart Go is a 2d -> 3d layout view with a swipe of a finger. Cool enough, but the lecturing in the background is ugly and unnecessary: And it is not realistic 3d, e.g., the stones remain flattened in the transform. But at least it (kind of) works. What doesn't work is the scoring estimator. When I tried to estimate a game between Park Taehee 1p and Kim Kihun 6p at various points in the game, it would always return a result of W+6.5 with a slightly cryptic addendum of 2.75 stones, despite Black winning by 6.5. Navigating the variation tree in the control bar is extremely unintuitive and difficult to use. I would not use this app to record and keep track of my own personal games for this reason.

Overall, I would have to say that this is not a very good Go app, certainly not "the BEST". There was already bad aji when I saw the icon of the app when I purchased this from the app store, and for $14.99 it is, in my opinion, overpriced.

First I have to say, thank you for the purchase.

I can see that this is a somewhat good comparison post with support of some "evidences", though it might be aroused by the conflict in other thread. If the effort is for argument purpose, we would save our time not replying to anything like that.

As one can criticize everything even for a perfect things. If for argument purpose, one can always do so. I can see that highly regarded features like web integration is considered as trash. I can also see many other things or features are meaningless for someone who just tries to criticize

For the Facebook one, there is an option to share to fb/twitter or copy the bb code. This actually reports a bug that we forgot: To have an option do nothing. This will be added in future release.

The color scheme is adapted from default iOS navigation bar. And Go Eye is not best viewed in portrait mode on iPad (Landscape mode will look more beautiful) due to enough space for showing the right side panel and game tree. For UI, we are constantly improving it. But I don't like your first screen dump with a very vague yellow or brown color like worn out paper background, and it contains not very distinguishable UI elements. There is no shadow in the stones. The standard UI elements are inconsistent (See the reply button). And I spot a bug that the coordinates collide! (Thank me, the author )

The action triggered by "scale" icon is for end-game counting, not for score estimation.

Press "x" at the move "0" is to remove the whole branch. So it is expected to clear the whole game. You can always revert the change in the action menu. This is a convenient way to clear a variation or main branch. The crash after second tap is a bug that we will fix. Thanks for reporting this.


We welcome reasonable bug reports and complains to improve it. There have been lots of suggestions from the users in the long Go Eye thread.

Okay, I'll chime in. I'm editor (and also occasional reviewer) of a long-lasting website devoted to iOS reviews. So, I've seen a lot already.

I would have loved to record a video showing where GoEye fails and makes bad UI choices, but GoEye hijacks iOS mirroring, so there's no way to record what the UI looks like without using an external camera, which is a sub-par solution. I have found no way to override this, so, no video. This hijacking is supposedly part of the AppleTV integration part, which I found nice in theory (I'm also one of the editors of the largest Apple TV-related blog,) but in practice not so good. The board is somewhat larger than what Qipan or SmartGo Kifu show in normal, iPad mirroring setting, but not by much, and there are no controls shown on-screen, instead the rest of the "screen real estate" is used by a QR code promoting the app.

Araban, having a browser for getting the games is a good point I think. It follows what Goodreader and Instapaper do: you no longer need to worry about remembering exactly where the file is, just browse without leaving the app and download from there. It's handy to have, even if not fundamental.

Here's another UI inconsistency. I'm using the black and white background with black/white circles, not stone images. This is what appears when I press delete:
I only like pictures for stones sparingly, for reviewing games or for editing I much prefer plain stones. Qipan does this perfectly, for instance. If I wanted good photorealistic stones, nothing would beat iGoban+ if it had a SGF editor.

If a dark gray background with black text (variations are shown in black text if they are named, comments in a slightly grey tinted white, same for coordinates for the stones) is supposed to be a good UI choice, we are all doomed. Doomed, I say.

Funny how the author criticises the "Reply" (sic, supposed to be Replay) in the SmartGo Kifu as an inconsistency. GoEye uses an icon expected for textual menus for the editing tools. Can't say how many times I've tapped the book view icon instead.
Also, if you look below you'll see that the icons for advance and go back are plus and minus signs, also violating standard UI/UX practices.

The author is also constantly using the phrase "Go Eye is the BEST and next generation of SGF editor." And I'm still wondering what is supposed to be the previous edition of SGF editor, specially for iOS:

• In GoEye I need to tap the delete icon to delete any stone I have placed. So, if I realise I'm slightly misplacing the problem one column to the left, I need to tap the delete icon as many times as stones I have. In both EasyGo and SmartGo, the adding stones mode also deletes previously positioned stones, removing any unnecessary taps
• If I'm creating a variation where white moves first (to show what happens if black tenuki) and then I try to get a black move in the same place as the black move, the app won't let me. This is a bug shared with EasyGo, SmartGo does not let to choose who moves in editing mode (as far as I could tell.) So much for next generation?
• To add letters/markers to the board I need to tap four times (menu->flag->sign I want->place I want,) in EasyGo and SmartGo only thrice (menu->marker type->place)
• I have a set of pro 9x9 games where, sometimes, a no-named node appears in the middle of the game tree. When replaying (in SmartGo, EasyGo or Qipan), it means (usually) that the replay stops there as if it was endgame, then it can be continued. This kind of node can be easily deleted in EasyGo (is shown as a triangle in the game tree) In SmartGo it is shown as (for instance) 26-60 and can also be easily deleted by tapping the crossed variation icon. GoEye does not even show it in the variation tree. The culprit property is FG in the SGF standard.

Now, this is a screenshot from Explorer 3.3, created on 1990 for Mac Classic: It packs more tools in less space than most apps nowadays, sure (after all, a Mac Classic had 512x342 pixels screen.) And where and what are the editing tools?


Just click the stone to get a menu (so, 1 click to select, a scroll and another click for placement). And did you know? Even 24 years ago when adding stones, tapping an added stone deletes it.

Finally, I've seen the developer suggest in "his" thread to just purchase the app and, if you don't like it, request an Apple chargeback. Please, DON'T do this, as a user. There's no guarantee Apple will grant the refund (in general you need to have a decent proof of false advertising or app not working as advertised.) It should be the developer's duty to offer a free, lite version for you to try. EasyGo has EasyGo Lite, SmartGo doesn't have any, though.

For 15 USD I would never recommend GoEye, since the competition, even if small, outperforms in key aspects. For 5 USD more you can have SmartGo, with its 80k (offline available, anywhere you are) pro games, a very good range of problems and a relatively decent computer opponent (and better controls as detailed above.) For 3 USD less you can have EasyGo, which even if it has a very clunky interface, has very good controls for editing (specially for editing) and an incredibly good system for problems (study mode, spaced-repetition mode, lots of randomisation, etc.) So, if pro games are your thing, I'd recommend SmartGo, if you prefer heavy editing and/or tsumego capabilities, EasyGo specially shines.

I really appreciate this kind of discussions in details. There are good points inside:
1. The stones for deletion in B/W mode is not using the flat ones.
2. Pure gray background (in iOS 5/6, the texture looks nice) in iOS7 should be adjusted. This actually matches some of the recent suggestions from a professional UI designer. And we are trying to improve in future version.

It is rather unreasonable, though, to discuss about the pricing based on personal preferences. But I don't want to argue for that. I would tell some facts here that historical price of Go Eye was from 9.99$ to 14.99$, rising steadily when the app is improved (Version 1.0 => 9.99, 1.1 => 11, 1.2 => 12, ..., some linear relationship with the version). Some day, I think it would get to 20$ or 30$. I think still there are people who like it.

For deletion, we actually have a lot of consideration here. And finally we pick a simple deletion button for easy locating it on both iPhone and iPad. To tap a stone accurately when you make wrong placement. That is like tricking the user to repeat the errors again (He/She just pressed at wrong place on the touch screen! You let the correction follow the same practice?).

In the game tree, the current move is highlighted, and the rest of the moves are dimmed intentionally.

For the "common-bug of tapping a new stone on top of other stone" is a bad idea. Go Eye solved this by allowing you to change the color order (Remember the action menu, the black stone selector?). For number of taps, they are not used for a simple dimension of rating good or bad. Go Eye hides all infrequently used actions in menu, putting the most frequently accessed ones for quick access. I don't quite agree with your point of 4 taps or 3 taps for infrequent operations. For empty node, Go Eye will remove or merge them to a move node. This makes the navigation easier without stepping an empty move.

For the standard stepper (- +), it is iOS native control. It is not an icon.

Another point, I listed some errors in other software not to prove that mine is flawless. I just want to show that software can have problems here and there.

For Apple TV part, it is non-sense to show UI controls on TV screen. The TV is not a touch screen.

If you just insist on we cannot advertising on "Best", why should we follow you? You have your opinions. We have ours. If you just want to list some found problems (Thank you for reporting and sharing some of the viewpoints). of Go Eye to prove that other is best, I don't think it is a right logic, as Go Eye is constantly improving, unlike other apps that don't update. And the argument that "I would never" is not a wise suggestion to readers.

It's really hard to trust a software as being the best when the only source saying that is the developer. I'd rather trust independent sources which test software against each other and list their strong points and weak points before settling on "the best".

Of course the developer can continue to advertise their software as "the best" but without outside sources to confirm such, it's worthless and just annoying.

tchan001 wrote:It's really hard to trust a software as being the best when the only source saying that is the developer. I'd rather trust independent sources which test software against each other and list their strong points and weak points before settling on "the best".

Of course the developer can continue to advertise their software as "the best" but without outside sources to confirm such, it's worthless and just annoying.

The reality is no just the developers. But some users also say so. Please see some of the comments from the US App Store.

GoEye2012 wrote:I really appreciate this kind of discussions in details. There are good points inside:
1. The stones for deletion in B/W mode is not using the flat ones.
2. Pure gray background (in iOS 5/6, the texture looks nice) in iOS7 should be adjusted. This actually matches some of the recent suggestions from a professional UI designer. And we are trying to improve in future version.

It is rather unreasonable, though, to discuss about the pricing based on personal preferences. But I don't want to argue for that. I would tell some facts here that historical price of Go Eye was from 9.99$ to 14.99$, rising steadily when the app is improved (Version 1.0 => 9.99, 1.1 => 11, 1.2 => 12, ..., some linear relationship with the version). Some day, I think it would get to 20$ or 30$. I think still there are people who like it.

For deletion, we actually have a lot of consideration here. And finally we pick a simple deletion button for easy locating it on both iPhone and iPad. To tap a stone accurately when you make wrong placement. That is like tricking the user to repeat the errors again (He/She just pressed at wrong place on the touch screen! You let the correction follow the same practice?).

In the game tree, the current move is highlighted, and the rest of the moves are dimmed intentionally.

For the "common-bug of tapping a new stone on top of other stone" is a bad idea. Go Eye solved this by allowing you to change the color order (Remember the action menu, the black stone selector?). For number of taps, they are not used for a simple dimension of rating good or bad. Go Eye hides all infrequently used actions in menu, putting the most frequently accessed ones for quick access. I don't quite agree with your point of 4 taps or 3 taps for infrequent operations. For empty node, Go Eye will remove or merge them to a move node. This makes the navigation easier without stepping an empty move.

For the standard stepper (- +), it is iOS native control. It is not an icon.

Another point, I listed some errors in other software not to prove that mine is flawless. I just want to show that software can have problems here and there.

For Apple TV part, it is non-sense to show UI controls on TV screen. The TV is not a touch screen.

If you just insist on we cannot advertising on "Best", why should we follow you? You have your opinions. We have ours. If you just want to list some found problems (Thank you for reporting and sharing some of the viewpoints). of Go Eye to prove that other is best, I don't think it is a right logic, as Go Eye is constantly improving, unlike other apps that don't update. And the argument that "I would never" is not a wise suggestion to readers.

I don't see where I'm discussing the price "based on preferences." I'm discussing the price in relationship with competing products which offer similar capabilities. Looks like you are not liking this. By the way, in the previous discussion of what they offer, EasyGo offers fuseki search among added files (only for 19x19, though, not for 9x9 to my regret) and SmartGo offers fuseki and joseki search among the bundled pro games.

As a client, I'm giving a personal opinion, as well as a reviewer. Looks like you don't like opinions against your app, no matter if they are personal or whatever. The reader has its choice after I give my opinion, supposedly you as a developer shouldn't have an opinion but a product.

You clearly have an idea of what you think is "the best," and I disagree. I also disagree with your point of other apps "not being updated frequently". The fact that Anders or Xiangz are not posting a new thread in this forum every time they fix something (and that they usually group bugs in one big update instead of updating weekly) is their choice. SmartGo was updated on 24th July, EasyGo on 13th March, both of this year. They don't update frequently? Indeed so, but I'm not finding many issues with what they offer already.

• If GoEye is hiding nodes it "doesn't like" then it is not the best SGF editor, period. Since it is hiding information I want, and properties I may like to edit. This is not a personal opinion, an editing program which hides editable properties from me sucks big time.
• I'd rather have a normal UI on Apple TV because the normal UI adds vital information I may need to show (game data, comments.) Even drawing apps which offer AirPlay-enhanced capabilities keep a great part of the UI in place.
• If other apps have almost instant accessibility to "rarely used controls" I can't really understand why not having it is "best" than having it.
• The standard stepper is a stepper, which is an iOS control for setting a value. As such, here it has to be thought as setting the value of the move. But the standard practice is to use playback buttons, which make much more sense when browsing a go game. This is a UI error. You don't see why? Well, whatever.
• I don't understand what you mean by "the common bug" of tapping a stone on top of another stone. Create a new game, set first move as black and move to UR 4-4. Now go back a move, select white as first to move and select the same 4-4 point. Doesn't work. It's a bug, as far as I know, nothing in the SGF standard prevents this.

RBerenguel wrote:

GoEye2012 wrote:I really appreciate this kind of discussions in details. There are good points inside:

• If GoEye is hiding nodes it "doesn't like" then it is not the best SGF editor, period. Since it is hiding information I want, and properties I may like to edit. This is not a personal opinion, an editing program which hides editable properties from me sucks big time.
• I'd rather have a normal UI on Apple TV because the normal UI adds vital information I may need to show (game data, comments.) Even drawing apps which offer AirPlay-enhanced capabilities keep a great part of the UI in place.
• If other apps have almost instant accessibility to "rarely used controls" I can't really understand why not having it is "best" than having it.
• The standard stepper is a stepper, which is an iOS control for setting a value. As such, here it has to be thought as setting the value of the move. But the standard practice is to use playback buttons, which make much more sense when browsing a go game. This is a UI error. You don't see why? Well, whatever.
• I don't understand what you mean by "the common bug" of tapping a stone on top of another stone. Create a new game, set first move as black and move to UR 4-4. Now go back a move, select white as first to move and select the same 4-4 point. Doesn't work. It's a bug, as far as I know, nothing in the SGF standard prevents this.

I don't want to argue any more about it as the discussion seems to be trapped in an argument of you like white color, while other like black. For 1, showing infrequently used controls in the front is a good choice? If that, no argument from me any more. The discussion is meaningless then. There is no standard practice guideline for not allowing -+ for a discrete value back/forward. I think if you point to an Apple UI guidance as the evidence, then probably I would accept. Otherwise it is just non-sense by using personal "standard". The stone-on-stone one which you think all software have bugs. I think probably it is like saying that all the people are fool except you. Think about it. Period.

Some other comments are quite interesting for your reference.

This is not the best PR.

(And I've seen a lot of PR over the years, both good and bad.)

As I said before, I prefer comparisons from "independent sources" rather than from customer responses because a customer has already spent money on the software and has a vested interest. Secondly, I would also like to see independent comparisons between similar software packages as to their pros and cons before settling on which is the best and why.

tchan001 wrote:As I said before, I prefer comparisons from "independent sources" rather than from customer responses because a customer has already spent money on the software and has a vested interest. Secondly, I would also like to see independent comparisons between similar software packages as to their pros and cons before settling on which is the best and why.

There would be a contradiction here. If an "independent source" doesn't own the apps, he/she borrowed that from some other friends? But that is still dependent due to the friendship.

Or should we just install all these apps and send the iPad/iPhone to Go Seigen as a birthday gift?

An independent source would have no pre-conceived idea on which software is the best. They would use their own funds to purchase a group of similar software to test against each other. They would then write a report about the pros and cons of each software and then make a comparison of the features or lack thereof. Then they would assign a score based on their judgement of the quality of the software and publish such a report. Have you ever seen independent software reviews of things such as antivirus software?

GoEye, you have two active members here who are well respected and they are so kind to offer their insights and give you valuable feedback. You should be grateful you don't have to pay them for that. Professional testers come pretty expensive these days.

You can choose to scold them off and hence portray yourself as an unfriendly supplier, or to thank them for their review and offer a balanced account on how you will deal with the alleged deficiencies.

I'm not into IOS apps so I coulnd't be more unbiased. But once I do, I will probably not become your customer, based on how you respond to their feedback.

Knotwilg wrote:GoEye, you have two active members here who are well respected and they are so kind to offer their insights and give you valuable feedback. You should be grateful you don't have to pay them for that. Professional testers come pretty expensive these days.

You can choose to scold them off and hence portray yourself as an unfriendly supplier, or to thank them for their review and offer a balanced account on how you will deal with the alleged deficiencies.

I'm not into IOS apps so I coulnd't be more unbiased. But once I do, I will probably not become your customer, based on how you respond to their feedback.

There are many "thanks" inside for their detailed feedbacks. And thank you for reminding this.