Life In 19x19

I thought I would start a study journal since Hushfield's "Studying Go In China" journal is so inspiring. Maybe my journal will help another completely newbie someday.

For the record, I started playing Go/Baduk/Weiqi somewhere around June 26, 2014. As of this post, tomorrow will be 7 weeks in.

I have lost well over one hundred games to computer and human opponents, and, while I've advanced to the point where games against my close friends are non-challenging even with a 9-stone handicap, I am still a terrible player. I am even with Many Faces of Go on 18 kyu with 7 stones.

My experiences playing online with strangers have been so humiliating that I am not really interested in going back, and I've questioned why I even proceed. Still, for some reason, I am drawn to the game. I love the beauty of it, and when I accomplish my goals and don't make stupid mistakes like falling for easy squeezes or missing simple captures, I feel like I am improving.

What I'm doing to learn:

1) Tsumego
2) Tesuji
3) Memorizing games (especially the commented Lee Sedol vs. Gu Li Jubango) (I've stopped doing this recently, based on advice from the 4-dan at my Go club even though I find it fun and a lot easier than memorizing joseki)
4) Memorizing 4-4 Joseki from Ishida vol 3 (fascinating, but I'm very bad at it. Takes 5x the work to memorize joseki as a comparable number of moves from a game (my theory: because the game is a story! With thrills and chills and... context!))
5) Watching Nick Sibicky videos (Not sure if I learn a lot from these, maybe 1 or 2 things per vid, but they are like candy - fun, engaging, and entertaining)

...Preferably as much as possible!

Hi Sam!

Now that we've greeted each other, we're no longer strangers. That should make us able to play some games online, right?

Good luck to you on your journey with this game.

Hi Sam,

why have been games with strangers humiliating? We've all been 30k, or 25k, or 20k at some point (or will be, if we are still behind.) Making mistakes is part of the game, and being humiliated... Well, it always depends on how you see it. For instance, I just played 2 blitz games giving 4 stones (4k vs 8k on KGS.)

On the first, I overplayed a lot, and my opponent duly punished it, really well played. I thanked him for the game, complimented it and waited for a few seconds... No answer, he left, so I left for another game. Even though the game was quite humbling (humiliating is not the way to phrase it, in go, I think) I'd have liked a few phrases with my rival, but he just left.

Next I won, since my opponent left many weak shapes and I just kind of could cut everywhere (even if I played very recklessly at many places.. blitz happens, and I wasn't specially focused after a while.) When the game was done I wanted to review it quickly, to point some improvement my opponent could use, but either he felt humiliated or he didn't care.

So, had two opposing experiences, in one probably there was not much I could have gotten as far as review goes, but in the other I could have definitely give pointers my opponent, but he passed on it. Next time you have a humbling game, ask for a review. Worst could happen is the opponent leaving... Don't take it personally, it happens at all levels. You can always post the game for review here or if you are a reddit user, in the go subreddit.

Hi Marcus!

I guess you are right. I owe you an online game now!
How long have you been playing?

RBerengel,

I guess I feel humiliated when I lose to a stranger and humbled when I lose to someone I even vaguely know. I think it's a social thing, probably part of my competitive (sub)cultural milieu, martial arts tournaments and sword fighting. I don't think I'm alone in this difficulty, but I don't defend it -- I recognize it as a significant hindrance (that's why I mentioned it). Being told I am wrong will not help; I know I am wrong. What I don't have, and what I will try to research, unless someone here has already figured them out, are some mental tools/sports psychology techniques to let go a little more. Anyway, it may also just be part of being this new to the game, and feeling insecure/inept/sometimes outright stupid.

It's not the losing that hurts, really, but rather making stupid and embarrassing mistakes that I feel I should be past already. That's why I feel humiliated, I think. I am judging myself harshly, and expect the stranger to do the same. With someone I kind-of know, I don't feel this (unless I know they are a cad, and then I just don't care).

I don't think it's an entirely useless feature; it does give me a drive to succeed and focus like a laser. It's just right now it's kind of crippling me, far moreso than with my other hobbies.

I have always had this problem, though. I am a perfectionist, and when I get into something, I get in deep, to the exclusion of most else. Crazy deep.. Usually this phase lasts for three-to-six months. Then I back off, reset, reevaluate, and try to find a balance with my other goals. In rare cases I lose interest entirely. In equally rare cases, I continue my laser focus for about 5 years and usually get to be far-above-average at it. I did this with Taijiquan/Xingyiquan/Baguazhang (28 medals at various national and international tournaments). I also did this with writing (I was good enough to get a big-name literary agent; let's see if she can sell my book now!).

It remains to be seen if I will find go rewarding enough to become truly addicted, but I suspect getting over that feeling of humiliation in front of strangers will be a major hurdle in my development. And that's exactly why I mentioned it.

Another thing: I really like the social aspect of playing. Meeting new people, shaking their hand, figuring out who they are. You don't get to do that on the servers, or at least I haven't figured out how to. Though there was this one guy on IGS that chatted with me throughout the game. That game was a blast! And I lost by like 80 points!

I've been playing for about 6 years now, on and off ...

I'm not much of a "study" type of person, so my play is wildly inconsistent. I do read fairly well, usually, but I have a rather large number of blind spots in my understanding of this game (don't we all? ).

Since I have two young kids and a full time job, my time is limited, but I'm usually hanging out in the L19 room on KGS when I get the chance to play real-time games ... otherwise, I'm on both DGS and now OGS.

Always willing to play when I have the time, so feel free to drop me a note on any of those 3 servers.

Marcus wrote:I've been playing for about 6 years now, on and off ...

I'm not much of a "study" type of person, so my play is wildly inconsistent. I do read fairly well, usually, but I have a rather large number of blind spots in my understanding of this game (don't we all? ).

Since I have two young kids and a full time job, my time is limited, but I'm usually hanging out in the L19 room on KGS when I get the chance to play real-time games ... otherwise, I'm on both DGS and now OGS.

Always willing to play when I have the time, so feel free to drop me a note on any of those 3 servers.

Will do!

I've been trying to figure out where I should be playing against MFG.

Here's currently my highest level win. Computer on 18 kyu, giving me a 7 stone handicap. I don't know if this was a momentary flash of "genius" ("averageness?") or if this is the correct level for my play, but I consistently beat 18 kyu with 8 stones, and only rarely with 7 stones. Conflicted if I should bump it back to 8 stones or keep it in place.



Things I noticed:

1) Empty triangles everywhere, everywhere!

2) I used lots of really slow nobi moves, but I just didn't feel secure in my ability to connect. The reason this worked is the computer followed me. I don't know if a real person would.

3) I misread lots of connections between stones (thus my overrelaince on the nobi, and overconcentrating myself). This is usually due to me playing too fast, just looking for shape, and not reading. I need to break this habit.

4) Yes, EdLee, I used the Elephant's Eye when I tried to seal the top left corner. On purpose! (I had a plan! Like, for reals!) I wanted to try out the double-knight sealing move I learned from Nick Sibicky's videos last night. It worked, and I crushed him against my corner wall before he could make eyes (another thing I learned from Mr. Sibicky's videos last night). It worked well, but I wonder if there is a more efficient way to seal him without spending 3 moves? Also, I am sure there were other Elephant Eyes that I made that I missed, and that were unintentional. But I did really try to stop them!

5) I played this game really fast. Way way too fast. All of my moves against the 18k MFG are fast, because at that rank it plays fast. This is part of the reason I prefer to play against the 2 kyu version, because then I take my time and think, and I feel like I play better overall despite losing horrendously. I really need to work on setting my own pace, and not letting the opponent dictate it, but it's very hard to do. Any tips/tricks, like always taking a breath? Or not looking at the screen for a few seconds, so you don't see how fast it clicked?

6) I really tried to keep connection with my own stones and also sever connections for his, as advised by Bill. I think it worked out, at least in that top right corner.

7) I tried to resist the urge of throwing good stones after bad ones, when a shape is obviously dead. This is also a weakness of mine, balanced only by the tendency to think a shape is dead and give up on it when it is not.

Congrats on your win, some comments off the top of my head.

4: This is a weird Pincer, you even noticed it yourself, just play H17 right away

8: Really small extension, I like P3 better. If white extend up you overconcentrated him, if not you get to play O4, which makes great shape for you and bad shape for him.

10: Not bad, but again I think the kick is better, the way you played leaves the corner more open and doesn't use your K18 stone.

I'll leave the rest to the guys who are better than me

paK0 wrote:Congrats on your win, some comments off the top of my head.

4: This is a weird Pincer, you even noticed it yourself, just play H17 right away

8: Really small extension, I like P3 better. If white extend up you overconcentrated him, if not you get to play O4, which makes great shape for you and bad shape for him.

10: Not bad, but again I think the kick is better, the way you played leaves the corner more open and doesn't use your K18 stone.

I'll leave the rest to the guys who are better than me

Thanks so much for your comment!

About 4: It was a mis-click. I was going for the line above. Great stuff! Thanks again

Hi Sam,

we cannot say this is a mistake, certainly not at these levels.
It's a nice and big move. However, think about how to use
your stones — ALL your stones — efficiently. Look at
all your existing stones on the board. Use them. Attack.
Think about a pincer next time: M3, L3, or K3, etc. (Multiple good choices.)

for future reference, it's helpful to let people know this was a mis-click.
Just write this info in the SGF, at this move.

too small, too slow. C17 (3-3) is the biggest,
because you take away W's eye space, and W is not settled
as a result. Even for , C17 was very big.

better to connect solidly at R13: much better shape and aji for you.

very bad: Broken shape. Please see Toothpaste .

ridiculous: What's the correct move for W here ?
Moves like this show you don't have to worry
too much about the app's level — it's almost "random" sometimes.

good.

- exchange is good for W, not good for you.
Notice you make a kind of broken shape in relation to
your Q17 stone. On top, still C17 (3-3) is very big.

P19 capture instead.

T17 better. Think about why.

W explains why.

A6 hane better — why ?

Negative 1 point in gote: Worse than a Pass ! Why ??

Why ???

ridiculous. W would atari Q5 and crush your corner shape:
broken shape for you.

103, up to 103, I didn't see any elephant eyes,
and, not sure what you meant by "double knight", either... 114 . Can you find a ladder to capture the two L10 W stones ?

Don't substitute playing for improvement with writing about it. Review your games, draw the main lesson, play again. Get help when lost. Practice reading in tsumego. Play, review. Get ideas. Play, review. Keep a journal to sustain the rhythm. Don't substitute actual play & practice with prose.

Unless you prefer prose to Go, like many of us

Enjoy the journey!

Knotwilg wrote:Don't substitute playing for improvement with writing about it. Review your games, draw the main lesson, play again. Get help when lost. Practice reading in tsumego. Play, review. Get ideas. Play, review. Keep a journal to sustain the rhythm. Don't substitute actual play & practice with prose.

Unless you prefer prose to Go, like many of us

Enjoy the journey!

I am a writer. I may be a lost cause!

EdLee wrote: 103, up to 103, I didn't see any elephant eyes,
and, not sure what you meant by "double knight", either...

:black:104 makes an elephant's eye with Q10. When he pushes through, I use the knight's jumps at :black:106 and :black:108 to help close him in. It doesn't do all the work, of course, but knowing it was an option did help.

Thank you so much for taking the time to look at my terrible playing. I am updating the file real time with your (and everyone else's) comments, so I can study the game more.

This is my fault; I should have marked them in the SGF file.

Thank you, EdLee. Your comments are absolutely fantastic! Very eye opening. You have some great questions in there, lots of food for thought. I think most of them are meant as rhetorical, or for private reflection, so I will only address three.

And I won't try to justify them at all; they are likely to be wrong, if I had read them out. I will, rather, explain why they were made.

EdLee wrote: 114 . Can you find a ladder to capture the two L10 W stones ?

As for this one:

If I were a lesser man, I would pretend that I saw the ladder at L11 (L9 does not work, by my reading) and then dismissed it in favor of sealing the corner, but I didn't even look.

I was too focused on trying to completely seal in the top right corner and eliminate all the flaws I could find, regardless of the shape cost. I thought I could win for a change. I could taste it. But I knew if I let the top corner out, or let it make eyes, all would be lost. So I threw everything I could find at boxing that shape in, killing its eye potential. Most likely to the point of overkill.

I should've taken the time to LOOK at the ladder, and I did not. If I had taken the time to read, rather than playing in a desperate panic to not let all those big points get away, I may have made a different decision. (I don't know; I am far too tired now. I will go through later and try to read it when I am less exhausted.)

This is one thing I constantly struggle with, especially when playing very quickly, just a few seconds a move -- I tend to play my own game and ignore the other guy, and that simply does not work.

I really need to learn to pace myself when my opponent is fast, learn to slow down. I put a crazy amount of time on the clock, like 300 minutes, and I barely used any of it.

EdLee wrote: Why ???

This one, the answer is simple: I knew this was a bad move when I took it, but I didn't trust myself.

I'd already really screwed up at P19 because I was playing too fast -- I mean I had the capture, I knew it was there, and then I forgot about it. I'd also lost stones like this, or lost captures like this repeatedly -- over and over and over again --in my other games.

I was positive -- absolutely sure -- that when white started attacking the Q17 string, I was going to miss it. I was going to accidentally let it die.

I already knew that I wanted to engulf the top right,and I was pretty sure I could do it, and I was going to be screaming mad at myself if I screwed up and let the Q17 stones die when the answer was right there!

So, in order to trust myself enough to try and settle some stuff elsewhere and prepare to engulf the top right: I took the capture.

I knew it was mistimed. I knew I was giving up sente. I knew that I would have to pay for it, and that I might even be putting my future plans at risk, if white used the move to make better eye shape. But I did it anyway.

I'll have to do some serious reading and studying of the game to determine if I would actually do it again.

EdLee wrote: Negative 1 point in gote: Worse than a Pass ! Why ??

(Since the above two make me out to have actually been thinking and planning, and everything must have give and take and balance, I will now discuss this one:)

I have no valid excuse or even reasoning. It was a horrible move. I am a beginner, and I am terrible at this game!

Hi Sam,

Great to see you starting your own study journal. This is a great way to share some of your games and have other players look at them. I see you're already getting excellent feedback on that part.

It's already been discussed to some length here, but I'd like to pitch in on the feeling of being humiliated after online go. I think I understand this quite well, as it used to happen to me a lot, and occasionally still does. After having the feeling transfer over in some of the other games I've studied over the years, I think it might just be a side effect of one's (emotional) investment into the game and trying to improve. So that's good, right? You like go enough to care about your own level of play. By the way, a lot of what makes up that feeling are just chemicals going to work in your body after a game is done. This feeling can easily turn into fear of losing, or avoiding playing actual human opponents, but somebody can come up with a pill that makes you feel exactly the same way. So don't be too hard on yourself about it. It happens to all of us.

For fear of losing, there is only one way to deal with this in my experience: play more games. It sounds counter-intuitive, but this actually works. As Knotwilg pointed out, it's good to always just focus on one or two things from a game, and try to work on that going forward. Perhaps one of the first things you could work on is playing a set amount of games with other players. Just say something like: whatever else I will do for go today, I should play 3 games with human opponents. The result doesn't matter, my level of play doesn't matter. 3 games. And check that off your to-do list.

RBerenguel's example highlighted another part of online go: it's pretty easy to just be rude and leave a faceless opponent without saying anything. Don't be that person. Greeting a player before the game, and thanking him afterwards are not just courtesy, they're also a way for yourself to respectively focus on the game you're about to play, and leave some of the emotional attachment to the result on the board. I'm not proud to admit it, but over the years I've left quite a few games after they were done without saying anything. I never felt good about any of them. You'll feel a lot better if you force yourself to type "Thank you for the game" than if you just leave the game (and your mind keeps rehashing it over and over again).

Personally I'm not a huge fan of playing computer opponents too long into one's journey in go, but others do, so you should just do what makes the game fun for you. As long as you're not using the computer to avoid human opponents, there should be nothing wrong with that.

I'm in the L19 room on KGS as well, if you ever spot me online I'm usually up for playing a game, and helping you towards playing more games with human opponents.