Life In 19x19

Just to have a bit of a discussion, I ask a hypothetical question. If you had to choose a ruleset that would be used for all games of Go worldwide from today on, which one would you choose and why? (If you don't choose, Go will never be played again)

I would probably go for AGA rules. They are logical, clear, allow playout of L&D and let even beginners solve just about any situation without a referee/3rd person. They also have a nice feature of allowing both Chinese and Japanese counting. If I could slightly alter them, I would make a pass lift ko bans.first two consecutive passes lift ko bans.

Double Button Go.

It uses territory scoring and pass stones. But, unlike AGA rules, White is not required to make the last pass. Instead, if the player who made the first pass also makes the last pass, she does not give a pass stone for the last pass. Also, the first pass lifts any ko or superko ban, just like a board play. Therefore, if the opponent plays the second pass immediately, the first passer can retake a ko or make a play that recreates a previous whole board position. Normally, games will end with three consecutive passes, with no pass stone for the third pass.

The reason it is called double button go is that the first pass is considered a button, or a play that loses 1/2 point. The reason for the button is so that it does not matter who takes the last dame. The last pass is also a considered a button, played so that it does not matter who makes the last pass. Having the last pass made without a pass stone if made by the player who made the first pass means that we do not have to use any buttons at all to achieve the same result.

The reason that the first button (pass) lifts a ko or superko ban is that otherwise the player would have to fill in his own territory or sacrifice a stone to lift a ko or superko ban. Those plays cost 1 point and the button is meant to be an alternative play that functions exactly like such plays, but only costs 1/2 point. Since they lift ko bans, it should, as well.

Double button go is like the AGA rules, with only small changes. It produces territory scoring, which many players like, only not Japanese-style scoring, because it counts territory in seki. It also gets rid of the rule whereby White must make the last pass, which some players find confusing and arbitrary.

So double button Go is basically (disregarding ko) AGA's where rules: "2 passes end the game, if black was the last to pass, white must make an additional pass" are changed to "3 passes end the game, if the same person makes the first and the last pass of the game, (s)he doesn't give a pass stone for his/her final pass" and the game cannot be scored using area counting?

Bill Spight wrote:Also, the first pass lifts any ko or superko ban

Why only the first pass?

tiger314 wrote:So basically (disregarding ko) AGA's where rules: "2 passes end the game, if black was the last to pass, white must make an additional pass" are changed to "3 passes end the game, if the same person makes the first and the last pass of the game, (s)he doesn't give a pass stone for his/her final pass" and the game cannot be scored using area counting?

Bill Spight wrote:Also, the first pass lifts any ko or superko ban

Why only the first pass?

Because if any pass lifts a ko or superko ban, then you have to have another way besides consecutive passes to end play. Three pass rules are not enough. Such rules are possible -- see my Japanese style rules ( http://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules ) article 9, for example -- but they introduce unfamiliar and complicated procedures that avoid anomalies that occur only rarely. AGA rules can possibly end with a kind of Moonshine Life situation, although none has been known to occur in actual play. Having only the first pass lift ko or superko bans is enough to eliminate many or most such anomalies.

Oh, I see, a 4-pass rule would be nessesary. Funny thing is, that a 4-pass rule is actually implemented in the AGA ruleset, without the pass lifts ko ban rule

Edit: Never mind, this doesn't work.

Actually, why is the following sequence not allowed:
pass(lifts ban),pass, move, move, pass(lifts ban), pass, move, move, pass, pass, pass
I don't think there is a position in which this would be the correct way to play, but for the sake of the rules a fuseki move on 1-1 is valid, so why not this?

tiger314 wrote:Actually, why is the following sequence not allowed:
pass(lifts ban),pass, move, move, pass(lifts ban), pass, move, move, pass, pass, pass
I don't think there is a position in which this would be the correct way to play, but for the sake of the rules a fuseki move on 1-1 is valid, so why not this?

Sounds like a waltz.

tiger314 wrote:Actually, why is the following sequence not allowed:
pass(lifts ban),pass, move, move, pass(lifts ban), pass, move, move, pass, pass, pass
I don't think there is a position in which this would be the correct way to play, but for the sake of the rules a fuseki move on 1-1 is valid, so why not this?

Consider a double ko seki. If all passes lift ko or superko bans and two consecutive passes do not end play, one player can extend play indefinitely.

DrStraw wrote:

tiger314 wrote:Actually, why is the following sequence not allowed:
pass(lifts ban),pass, move, move, pass(lifts ban), pass, move, move, pass, pass, pass
I don't think there is a position in which this would be the correct way to play, but for the sake of the rules a fuseki move on 1-1 is valid, so why not this?

Sounds like a waltz.

Arthur Murray calls it a foxtrot.

Bill Spight wrote:Consider a double ko seki. If all passes lift ko or superko bans and two consecutive passes do not end play, one player can extend play indefinitely.

Seems like I nearly invented a new result: game annulled due to double ko
So 4 passes to end the game don't work

Sounds like a waltz.
Arthur Murray calls it a foxtrot.

As long as you ignore the last pass.

tiger314 wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:Sounds like a waltz.

DrStraw wrote:Arthur Murray calls it a foxtrot.

As long as you ignore the last pass.

Actually, it's this.

Bill Spight wrote:

DrStraw wrote:Sounds like a waltz.

Arthur Murray calls it a foxtrot.

My mom didn't pay for those ballroom dancing lessons for nothing.

I feel that anything beyond Japanese rules is just attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

palapiku wrote:I feel that anything beyond Japanese rules is just attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

First off, which japanese rules? Second, the Japanese rules are the most arbitrary of the bunch. For example bent 4 in the corner is dead always just because. Nevermind the actual situation. Not counting eyes in seki is at odds with what pretty much everyone else does, and they have a history of situational rulings based on politics rather than anything else.

skydyr wrote:[...]the Japanese rules are the most arbitrary of the bunch. For example bent 4 in the corner is dead always just because. Nevermind the actual situation. Not counting eyes in seki is at odds with what pretty much everyone else does, and they have a history of situational rulings based on politics rather than anything else.

I agree with everything on that list and I would like to add the trouble of explaining hypothetical play to non-players and beginners.

skydyr wrote:First off, which japanese rules?[...]

I've noticed a lot of people ask which ruleset, but have there actually been any contemporary disputes caused by a player assuming a different Japanese-style ruleset was used? There seems to be next to no difference between these rulesets.

skydyr wrote:

palapiku wrote:I feel that anything beyond Japanese rules is just attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

First off, which japanese rules? Second, the Japanese rules are the most arbitrary of the bunch. For example bent 4 in the corner is dead always just because. Nevermind the actual situation. Not counting eyes in seki is at odds with what pretty much everyone else does, and they have a history of situational rulings based on politics rather than anything else.

It's not just because, in chinese way of playing you can simply wait till the game is over and remove all ko threats in your area and then start the ko in the corner. Opponent has no ko threats and you kill it. Proves that bent four is dead.