Life In 19x19

Posted: **Tue May 05, 2015 1:06 pm**

Aparently 4 is bad for black but i'm not sure why...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Two space high pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Also if you go this route you can get:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Two space high pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 1 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Howhever what if black play this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Two space high pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 1 . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I don't even see how this 9 is doable for white ...

Thanks!
Otenki

Posted: **Tue May 05, 2015 1:19 pm**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Two space high pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . 1 . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This peep?

Posted: **Tue May 05, 2015 1:22 pm**

The reason why it's not joseki is that white's original pincering stone is not under much pressure, but it's blocking black exactly where black would want to extend to secure eyespace. If you look at the 5-4 joseki where black attaches as in your diagram, black follows it up with an extension down the left side. White's pincer stone here blocks that, so black has to move into the center, but he doesn't have clear eyespace, he's not exerting a lot of pressure on the white upperside group, and the left side stone is light and flexible.

Regarding your

I think that black's shape is a bit too weak for this. White should be able to peep and cut or something similar, without reading into it too much.

Posted: **Tue May 05, 2015 1:30 pm**

Hi otenki, the order also matters; a common sequence:
( Rotated for space

)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W :b8: pincer around grey regions $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 5 . 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 , 2 . . 3 . ? ? . $$ | . 7 6 a . . . . . ? ? . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | -----------------------[/go]

B exchanges

with

, but does not pull back at (a), and pincers instead.
Pulling back to (a), like

in your 2nd diagram, may be heavy for B.

Later, if W ataris at (a) =

, then B blocks at

.
If W does not capture, B can drop to

.
Now B has miai of (b) and (c):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B :w2: tenuki $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . X . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O b X . . O . $$ | . O X W 1 . . . . $$ | . . 3 c . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | -----------------[/go]

( If

does capture at

, then B has blocked at

in sente. )

Posted: **Tue May 05, 2015 3:16 pm**

Answer at a. Easy peasy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Two space high pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . 7 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 1 . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

P.S. this is consistent with the laid back 9, simply connecting. You could also think about more aggressive moves for 9 like cutting black's thin 2 space jump.

Posted: **Tue May 05, 2015 4:47 pm**

otenki wrote:...

Also if you go this route you can get:

$$W Two space high pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two space high pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 1 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
...

Thanks!
Otenki

Normally we end up with this 9 instead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Two space high pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 1 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Posted: **Wed May 06, 2015 9:04 am**

ez4u wrote:
otenki wrote:...

Also if you go this route you can get:

$$W Two space high pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two space high pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 1 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
...

Thanks!
Otenki
Normally we end up with this 9 instead.
$$W Two space high pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two space high pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 1 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

That makes a lot of sense, in that case josekipedia should be updated

http://josekipedia.com/#path:qdodldqcrcpcreogqh

Cheers,
Otenki

Posted: **Wed May 06, 2015 9:05 am**

Thanks for the replies guys... gives me things to think about and check !

Cheers,
Otenki

Life In 19x19

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