Life In 19x19

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:44 am**

Hi all. I have been playing more wbaduk in the korean servers. I'm about 4k on kgs but about 12k on wbaduk. They often do these following noseki which I don't know the best way of punishing. Looking for advice on the best to punish each of these. Thanks very much in advance!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Common scenario 1: I am B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . 7 . . 8 , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure what is the right continuation after a. I normally try a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Common scenario 2: I am B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . 7 . . . a . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . b . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I usually follow with a, but I'm not sure if I should try b or something else.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Common scenario 3: I am B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . 7 . . . b . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I normally answer with a or b but I'm not sure if there are better options or if I'm doing the right continuation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Common scenario 4: I am W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 7 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure whether to reply :b5:

with

. My idea is that playing on the second line in the early game is too slow, but then again it seems to concern the base of the corner group. I'm also not sure if the exchange up to 8 is favourable to either side. My gut says that it's even, but I feel like there must be a better way to play it as white.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:00 am**

Hi siowy,

One variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Scenario 1: Variation 1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . $$ | . 7 5 O 9 X . . O , . $$ | . 8 6 0 O X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 Scenario 1: Variation 1 cont'd $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 5 . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 O X . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . $$ | 4 X X O X X . . O , . $$ | . O O O O X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:17 am**

Hi siowy,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Scenario 4 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . $$ | . . O . . X . . a . . $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

Early in the opening, :b1:

could be a bit slow.
( Joseki is :black:

(a). ) You can tenuki with :w2:

-- take a big point, for example.

Your reply is OK, too:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Scenario 4 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . $$ | . . O X . X . . a . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

After all that, B still needs an extension,
otherwise if W pincers around (a) direction, the entire B group is not settled.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:24 am**

Thanks! I will remember that reply for scenario 1. Looks good!

For scenario 4, I guess I shouldn't fear :b3:

? This continuation below looks good for white since B gave up another sente?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Scenario 4 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 4 6 O . . . . . , . $$ | . 3 O 5 . X . . a . . $$ | . 7 1 X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:31 am**

Hi siowy,

You have to be prepared if W wants to fight:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Scenario 1: Variation 2 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 3 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . O 2 X . . O , . $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ------------------------[/go]

But W first has to make a dumpling shape.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:33 am**

Hi siowy,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Scenario 4 Variation: , tenuki $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 9 O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . . . $$ | . 5 . O . . . . . , . $$ | . 6 O . . X . . . . . $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:43 am**

My feeling:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Common scenario 4: I am W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If anything, White has the edge.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Common scenario 4: I am W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 7 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Look at

now. Better at "a", eh? White is overconcentrated.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:22 pm**

Bill Spight wrote:My feeling:

Look at now. Better at "a", eh? White is overconcentrated.

Thanks! Any ideas for scenarios 2 and 3?

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:32 pm**

For scenario two, A is fine.

For scenario 3, either A or B seem fine to me. B should be played with an aim at central influence, not points on the side, since white is undercutting it. A is more active and may start a fight, but helps black keep white confined to the corner and makes white's 2nd line move look not so good. Honestly, though, by playing on the 2nd line white's move kind of punishes itself. You could even consider treating A and B as miai and playing elsewhere, if it's big enough.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:42 pm**

Scenario 2 is easy. The extension to "a" is fine. White's thinness in the corner can be exploited in various ways, but there is no hurry. If White wastes a move to secure the corner, you can say thank you.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Common scenario 3: I am B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . 7 . . d b . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 5 . . . c . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I am leery of playing at "a" now because of the possibility that White can make :w8:

look good. "b" or "c" or "d" might be played, not to make territory, given the open skirt, but to support :b5:

and

. Tenuki is also possible --When in doubt, tenuki.--, but not so easy to handle. In particular, if White plays a pincer right away, don't run. The idea is to treat :b5:

and

lightly, not to make them heavy.

You are good enough to try that strategy, but expect some disasters before you learn how.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:30 pm**

Thanks for all the super helpful replies! I didn't expect to get answers so fast! :bow:

time to rank up on wbaduk! :batman:

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:22 am**

Another possibility + variation for scenario 4. With thanks to Guo Juan/internetgoschool.com

I've noticed these are fairly common on Tygem, too. As well as this;

Life In 19x19

WBaduk common pattern

WBaduk common pattern

Re: WBaduk common pattern

Re: WBaduk common pattern

Re: WBaduk common pattern

Re: WBaduk common pattern

Re: WBaduk common pattern

Re: WBaduk common pattern

Re: WBaduk common pattern

Re: WBaduk common pattern