Life In 19x19

I'm looking to develop holes in my fundamentals by exploring topics I'm not good at.

I'm wondering if there are any good books on crosscuts or double hanes? When to double hane, when to cross cut, when cross cutting when to extend or atari. I'm around 2-3 kyu KGS. However, I feel like there are certain holes in my game. Typically games are won or lost by 20-30 points meaning my ability fluctuates a lot. I recently beat a 4 dan on Tygem but he took it easy on me at the beginning because it was kind of a teaching game.

When reviewing pro games and I see a cross cut, I try to read what the pro will do but almost always get it wrong. I usually know what they are aiming for when playing through their games but I get the specific moves wrong in order to accomplish their goal. I don't understand why this is. It's like my intuition is good but reading is terrible. I think if there were some sort of book with problems on this crosscuts and double hanes I could maybe learn by problem solving and having my mistakes pointed out so I could learn from them.

I'm also looking for a book that explores the elephant jump or diagonal jump in depth as I want to learn that but it rarely shows up in games even pro games, but the diagonal jump AlphaGo made against Lee was amazing.

I know there are some books that have a few examples or problems, but it doesn't seem enough to get a grasp of the concept. I seem to do better by learning the concepts then applying them in problems repeatedly to build a foundation in understanding the concept. Maybe it's because I'm getting older, but I have a tough time remembering new concepts or moves I learn in books only to have them never show up in my games and get no practice in them.

Aji and making sabaki seem to be other weaknesses I have. Again I have difficult time reading in wide open spaces and playing lightly with weak stones or groups. I've done a few problems in some books on the subjects but again I don't feel like I have a firm grasp in them especially when there are so many variations and they rarely come up in games.

I don't know about double hanes, but I recall the "Cross-cut Workshop" book:
http://www.slateandshell.com/SSRH001

In general, books by Richard Hunter seem to focus on a particular fundamental topic. I enjoyed his book on capturing races.

Yilun Yang also gives general principles for things like crosscuts. You might check into some of his books, but they are more about generalized fundamentals rather than an entire book devoted to a particular topic.

Another idea: You could look for these things when reviewing your games. For example, you mentioned you wanted to learn about elephant jump. Maybe you could play a game - if elephant jump comes up, great. But even if it doesn't, then take that same game, go through it move by move, and think if you could have played an elephant jump at that point in time.

You might find options that you didn't consider during the game. Your own games should be a nice resource for study.

BTW, I heard from a pro that was studying in the area that it was efficient to play games with certain themes or concepts in mind. So if you're bad at moyos, for example - play some games using moyos to get used to them.

So if you don't understand double hane that well - maybe you can actively try to play games and double hane as much as possible. Then go back and see when it wasn't appropriate.

Temp, you have interesting study goals and I wish I could recommend you specific books for your needs. E.g., I might suggest Joseki 1 - Fundamentals because it classifies types of moves and of their meanings. However, you want something deeper that studies every move type (of your interest) in much greater detail together with its aims and strategic choices. I do not know any such book yet that goes into the detail you want and does not focus on another topic. E.g. the book Crosscut Workshop does not go deep enough by far.

So the best I can do is to recommend reading every book about related topics of move types, aims, strategic choices. You also say you want books explaining reasoning. Books for your study topics are found in the joseki literature (and especially my joseki books, which also explain move types, aims and strategic choices). For the topic aims, there is also my book Tactical Reading, which does not discuss aims in the broad middle game manner you are interested in but at least tells you how to manage aims in local reading situations once you have formulated some aims. For the topic strategic choices, read every book about that topic, see
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/isbn.html
http://www.gobooks.info/jasiek/
Furthermore, it will help you to read everything you can find about the fundamentals, so choose related books. Then there are countless Asian problem books, in which you also find problems for your study move types; read them while carefully reflecting the decision-making related to aims, or dynamically changing aims. Before you do that, read books about strategic choices (and my joseki books because they explain much about strategic choices) so that you get a better idea of how to think about aims. You also need to develop an idea of flexibility (shortly discussed in Fighting Fundamentals, which also discusses aims from a general point of view).

I know you prefer books about the middle game as a more general context, but the problem is that the best related books are written for joseki contexts. So do the necessary generalisation and abstraction from josekis to the middle game by yourself.

Finally, books about the topic haengma can assist you, although it is "only" a related topic.

If you wonder why I suggest a good number of my own books, that is because I emphasise aims, reasoning and decision-making and do not see much of that in books by other authors. Of course, you can also read any detailed joseki dictionary, such as Dictionary of Basic Joseki, to extract its unorganised, example-driven comments about aims hidden amidst the text, but IMO you waste much time by only doing so.

Once you will have a better idea on aims, strategic choices and move types, always bring yourself to reflecting them at every turn during your games.

Have I seen (Asian) books about your specific topics of your mentioned move types? Yes. Are they worth recommending? No (although they would not hurt, either), so get whatever you can find but expect a low level rather than deep diving into aims and strategic choices. (I do not recall any titles.)

Kirby wrote:I don't know about double hanes, but I recall the "Cross-cut Workshop" book:
http://www.slateandshell.com/SSRH001

I liked this book and would recommend it as it teaches through problems with detailed answers about the various options. Cho Hun-hyeon's Lectures on Go Techniques I & II are more general but might be relevant? If you have an iPad or access to one they're all on SmartGo Books (or Go Books I think it's called now).

Fan Hui has written a book about shapes in french (L'Ame du Go, les Formes et leur Esthétique). It is aimed at beginners, but also at amateurs who would like to review the fundamentals.

Beside this book, Fan's teaching is heavily based on shapes. When he comments games, he often points out the appearance of good or bad shapes while all we see is a straightforward sequence. Where we think "this moves is bad because it doesn't escape fast enough", Fan thinks "this move is bad because it invites the opponent to cross the keima".
He likes easy principles, like "if you can atari from both sides, then it is better not to atari at all".

RobertJasiek wrote:Temp, you have interesting study goals and I wish I could recommend you specific books for your needs. E.g., I might suggest Joseki 1 - Fundamentals because it classifies types of moves and of their meanings. However, you want something deeper that studies every move type (of your interest) in much greater detail together with its aims and strategic choices. I do not know any such book yet that goes into the detail you want and does not focus on another topic. E.g. the book Crosscut Workshop does not go deep enough by far.

Well, there is room to disagree here, for the sake of someone who is styled "beginner" here. Richard Hunter's Crosscut Workshop might be ideal, or it might be too detailed, or it might not be detailed enough. I suspect that it won't be the third option, but who knows.

Hunter's books tend to consolidate the sort of problem material that is common enough in Japan; and to give some structure.

Maybe Temp should read Crosscut Workshop and tell us if it would be too easy or advanced:)

Kirby wrote:I don't know about double hanes, but I recall the "Cross-cut Workshop" book:
http://www.slateandshell.com/SSRH001

In general, books by Richard Hunter seem to focus on a particular fundamental topic. I enjoyed his book on capturing races.

Yilun Yang also gives general principles for things like crosscuts. You might check into some of his books, but they are more about generalized fundamentals rather than an entire book devoted to a particular topic.

Another idea: You could look for these things when reviewing your games. For example, you mentioned you wanted to learn about elephant jump. Maybe you could play a game - if elephant jump comes up, great. But even if it doesn't, then take that same game, go through it move by move, and think if you could have played an elephant jump at that point in time.

You might find options that you didn't consider during the game. Your own games should be a nice resource for study.

I'm a little nervous about dropping $10 on a 40 page book. Is it that good? I noticed Yang Yilun also a similar small book on Sabaki but it's out of print. He has a Fundamentals Principles of Go book. Is that what you were talking about? I already have two similar books I think Strategic Concepts of Go and Strategic Fundamentals of Go that I'm going to go through. If you think that's a better fundamentals book than the ones I have, maybe I'll get it.

RobertJasiek wrote:Temp, you have interesting study goals and I wish I could recommend you specific books for your needs. E.g., I might suggest Joseki 1 - Fundamentals because it classifies types of moves and of their meanings. However, you want something deeper that studies every move type (of your interest) in much greater detail together with its aims and strategic choices. I do not know any such book yet that goes into the detail you want and does not focus on another topic. E.g. the book Crosscut Workshop does not go deep enough by far.

So the best I can do is to recommend reading every book about related topics of move types, aims, strategic choices. You also say you want books explaining reasoning. Books for your study topics are found in the joseki literature (and especially my joseki books, which also explain move types, aims and strategic choices). For the topic aims, there is also my book Tactical Reading, which does not discuss aims in the broad middle game manner you are interested in but at least tells you how to manage aims in local reading situations once you have formulated some aims. For the topic strategic choices, read every book about that topic, see
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/isbn.html
http://www.gobooks.info/jasiek/
Furthermore, it will help you to read everything you can find about the fundamentals, so choose related books. Then there are countless Asian problem books, in which you also find problems for your study move types; read them while carefully reflecting the decision-making related to aims, or dynamically changing aims. Before you do that, read books about strategic choices (and my joseki books because they explain much about strategic choices) so that you get a better idea of how to think about aims. You also need to develop an idea of flexibility (shortly discussed in Fighting Fundamentals, which also discusses aims from a general point of view).

I know you prefer books about the middle game as a more general context, but the problem is that the best related books are written for joseki contexts. So do the necessary generalisation and abstraction from josekis to the middle game by yourself.

Finally, books about the topic haengma can assist you, although it is "only" a related topic.

If you wonder why I suggest a good number of my own books, that is because I emphasise aims, reasoning and decision-making and do not see much of that in books by other authors. Of course, you can also read any detailed joseki dictionary, such as Dictionary of Basic Joseki, to extract its unorganised, example-driven comments about aims hidden amidst the text, but IMO you waste much time by only doing so.

Once you will have a better idea on aims, strategic choices and move types, always bring yourself to reflecting them at every turn during your games.

Have I seen (Asian) books about your specific topics of your mentioned move types? Yes. Are they worth recommending? No (although they would not hurt, either), so get whatever you can find but expect a low level rather than deep diving into aims and strategic choices. (I do not recall any titles.)

I would say I'm pretty good at the middle game at least compared to other parts. Just don't get to practice those concepts I'm a little weak at and don't always come up in games like sabaki, cross cut, diagonal jump etc. Was kind of getting burnt out on studying so wanted something new and interesting to look at. That diagonal jump in the AlphaGo game with Lee completely reversed Lee's attack and put him on the defensive while simultaneously making AlphaGo's stones safe.

You're recommendation of studying Joseki is interesting as I was going to create a thread on that next. This is kind of my main weakness. They say not to study Joseki or memorize it, but I've been looking at studying it for awhile because it always puts me behind in games when I do poorly in a corner. The little I can gather is to try and understand the meaning of the moves, but that is too vague and open to interpretation. There's nothing more concrete. When googling the question most people also tell everyone they are too weak to be studying joseki which is frustrating because there's very little explanation of how to study joseki out there.

Some moves defend you against some cut or some sequence 20 moves down the road that you can't see (or I can't read that far) while also accomplishing an easier goal that's easy to understand. But unless someone explains those 20 move deep sequences and ideas I don't know how I'm going to know about it or be able to see it by staring at the joseki move.

In games I play where I get a bad result I review and go to Josekipedia typically found I moved one space from the right place for the joseki, showing I had the right idea but it leaves a weakness or isn't as optimal as the right move. Although I review the right joseki moves, because these same joseki don't come up in games I end up forgetting the proper moves.

I'm aware of your books but wasn't sure whether or not to get them. I don't see a lot of reviews on them so wasn't sure how good they are. I was also looking at the Get Strong at Joseki books and the Graded go problems for dan players, joseki problem books. I still have a lot of books to go through though. I just started playing again 2 months ago after 10 years of quitting and am trying to go through my old books as quickly as possible to relearn everything as quickly as possible. Also doing life and death problems every day even if I don't play to develop my reading as that's something else I'm weak at.

I have a real tough time reading as well, just imagining the stones on the board so you can read accurately is tough for me. I can sort of see where the moves will be but because I can't imagine the stones on the board I think I miss liberties and have trouble seeing possible moves my opponent can make. That's why I try to do as many life and death and tesuji problems as possible.

I forgot I also have Essential Joseki and Even Game Joseki, two old books I haven't read through yet. I don't know if they are good or accomplish the same goals as your books. I also have Whole Board thinking in Joeki. I went through volume 1 already. Still have volume 2, but this direction of play stuff I'm pretty good at.

Charles Matthews wrote:

RobertJasiek wrote:Temp, you have interesting study goals and I wish I could recommend you specific books for your needs. E.g., I might suggest Joseki 1 - Fundamentals because it classifies types of moves and of their meanings. However, you want something deeper that studies every move type (of your interest) in much greater detail together with its aims and strategic choices. I do not know any such book yet that goes into the detail you want and does not focus on another topic. E.g. the book Crosscut Workshop does not go deep enough by far.

Well, there is room to disagree here, for the sake of someone who is styled "beginner" here. Richard Hunter's Crosscut Workshop might be ideal, or it might be too detailed, or it might not be detailed enough. I suspect that it won't be the third option, but who knows.

Hunter's books tend to consolidate the sort of problem material that is common enough in Japan; and to give some structure.

Have you read cross cut workshop?

I kind of suspect there are Chinese or Korean books on these concepts written by pros. It's a shame we don't get these books translated in the West. A lot of books seem to be written by amateurs and pros always talk about how bad amateurs are at understanding the basics and there seem to be mistakes in some of their books like Making Good Shape. I also suspect that have better series of books on fundamentals and all aspects of Go similar to Elementary series and others with the latest information.

Temp, although you have only recently restarted, you seem very eager to learn. You ask how good my joseki books are and how different from other books. Very good and very different - very good for those wishing to learn theory, reasoning, explanation and much of that. My books are the wrong choice for those wishing nothing but examples and little effort. My 3 joseki book series gives you the more the more effort you invest in learning.

RobertJasiek wrote:Temp, although you have only recently restarted, you seem very eager to learn. You ask how good my joseki books are and how different from other books. Very good and very different - very good for those wishing to learn theory, reasoning, explanation and much of that. My books are the wrong choice for those wishing nothing but examples and little effort. My 3 joseki book series gives you the more the more effort you invest in learning.

Well I'm a perfectionist, so that's why I try so hard, but I get so frustrated and angry at myself when I make mistakes.

On a side note, I haven't decided one way or another about your books, I'll probably wait a bit until I finish going through the books I currently have. But I noticed you're in Europe, do you ship to US or would I have to get PDFs? How much does that typically run? Do you ever have sales or give a discount on large purchases?

Temp wrote:

RobertJasiek wrote:Temp, although you have only recently restarted, you seem very eager to learn. You ask how good my joseki books are and how different from other books. Very good and very different - very good for those wishing to learn theory, reasoning, explanation and much of that. My books are the wrong choice for those wishing nothing but examples and little effort. My 3 joseki book series gives you the more the more effort you invest in learning.

Well I'm a perfectionist, so that's why I try so hard, but I get so frustrated and angry at myself when I make mistakes.

On a side note, I haven't decided one way or another about your books, I'll probably wait a bit until I finish going through the books I currently have. But I noticed you're in Europe, do you ship to US or would I have to get PDFs? How much does that typically run? Do you ever have sales or give a discount on large purchases?

The style is very dry,you should check the sample pages first.
I bought one book(fighting fundamentals) and I couldn`t force myself to finish the book(I have read quite a lot of different GO books,never had this issue)

Your questions are answered here:
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/payment.html

World-wide shipping: yes.
Discount / free shipping for large orders: yes.
PDF: would be an alternative

More information:
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/books.html

If anyone has any other suggestions or knows of any other books let me know and those subjects in the OP let me know. Ko would be another subject that's only touched on in some books. I know there are several books on ko though but not which is best.

andreyl wrote:

Temp wrote:

RobertJasiek wrote:Temp, although you have only recently restarted, you seem very eager to learn. You ask how good my joseki books are and how different from other books. Very good and very different - very good for those wishing to learn theory, reasoning, explanation and much of that. My books are the wrong choice for those wishing nothing but examples and little effort. My 3 joseki book series gives you the more the more effort you invest in learning.

Well I'm a perfectionist, so that's why I try so hard, but I get so frustrated and angry at myself when I make mistakes.

On a side note, I haven't decided one way or another about your books, I'll probably wait a bit until I finish going through the books I currently have. But I noticed you're in Europe, do you ship to US or would I have to get PDFs? How much does that typically run? Do you ever have sales or give a discount on large purchases?

The style is very dry,you should check the sample pages first.
I bought one book(fighting fundamentals) and I couldn`t force myself to finish the book(I have read quite a lot of different GO books,never had this issue)

What level would you the book is for? I'm pretty good at fighting for my level. I'm still looking at the samples of the books. It's still tough to judge books on a few pages. Wish I could flip through and skim chapters to see if books have anything I haven't seen before. I hate wasting my money.