Life In 19x19

Hi all,

I played a new game recently, and I know I made a lot of terrible mistakes. I'm white in this game. I won by a nice margin, but 147 was a mistake.

I'm almost positive that if black fights the ko, he wins, and the entire white shape is dead. Can someone help me here? Both in reading the ko, and in how better to approach the black invasion at 131

As an aside, I'm realizing as I get better at go, that players in the single-digit kyu ranking, who I once thought were inhuman, near-perfect players, are infact only human and make the same silly mistakes that I do

Is there a rule about posting too many games for review here? I really love using this forum for feedback on my play and improvement, but please let me know if I am violating a rule by posting multiple games.



Thanks as always for the feedback!

-Christopher

Hi Christopher,

A few questions.

The board after :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ {AR C12 D15}
$$ {AR D15 C12}
$$ {AR E17 J17}
$$ {AR J17 E17}
$$ {AR L17 P17}
$$ {AR P17 L17}
$$ {AR Q15 R10}
$$ {AR R10 Q15}
$$ {AR Q5 R8}
$$ {AR R8 Q5}
$$ {AR P4 M3}
$$ {AR M3 P4}
$$ {AR E3 K3}
$$ {AR K3 E3}
$$ {AR C7 C10}
$$ {AR C10 C7}[/go]

What's the size of each of the above eight gaps ?
( For slant gaps, just approximate. )

Gap size is not the only factor when we choose a move.
For , did you consider the gap sizes ?

How many gaps are wider than the one you picked for ?Why didn't you pick one of the wider gaps ?

Hi Christopher,

Q6

L4

, Did you read the cut at H4 before you played ?
What happens if cuts at H4 ?

If you block at L5, what's the status of the black group ?

Does N10 work ?

Did you read the cut before this hane ?

You are leaving a lot of positions thin and unfinished, with bad aji waiting to bite you later. Especially when you have a won game, consider adding a thick safe move to finish off a position. Also, there is a capturing tesuji you should learn, which came up three times in this game!

at L4 would complete the capture of 6 B stones and create a strong outside wall with no bad aji. This would be a clearly won game. Instead you play a speculative move which provokes a fight.

at L5 would greatly strengthen your position below and threaten to kill the surrounded B side group. In contrast, if B gets to play L5, the balance of power completely changes. (As an aside, N7 was bad, forcing B to push through and break the W position. See if you can find a tesuji to capture the two B stones.)

is quite thin and also unnecessary. W had a tesuji to capture the 5 outsice cutting stones. at Q10 would have been a nice tesuji to punish the W overplay, capturing some outside stones and hence killing the W inside stones.

compensates largely for the big loss on the right side. W needs to settle his weak group here to consolidate the win. Giving up the 5 stones to the left on a small scale looks like a good solution. L9 is a fine idea, but a bit thin -- holding back to L8 would be much better. This move makes an immediate eye, and allows W to resist K6 with K7. Still, W got a fine result through .

at G7 is a little off the mark, as B demonstrated. Connecting at N5 would be fine, leaving 10 B stones cutoff and nearly dead. Just give up 5 stones if B invests another move to attack them. Locally J6 is the shape move, preempting any attack on this group and thereby threatening the B stones to the left. After B gets this move, instead of playing K6 (losing liberties), W should play G5 to keep the B stones to the left under attack. Or more simply block at J7 to give them up on a small scale. This still leaves W with an easy win.

:w102: is a thank-you move, forcing B to play strengthening moves he would like to play anyway. It is difficult for W to make territory with this move -- there is no moyo in sight.

:w130: is again very thin, as B again demonstrated. (:b147: should just capture at A6 to connect, leaving W dead). If you need to defend here, C4 is totally safe. And again there was a tesuji to capture the three outside B cutting stones.

:w190: seeks complications for no good reason. Surely G15 leads to a completely won game with no complications. :w206: should still be G15, planning to give up 2 stones if B cuts. Or switch to Q17, more or less asking B to resign.

mitsun wrote:

You are leaving a lot of positions thin and unfinished, with bad aji waiting to bite you later. Especially when you have a won game, consider adding a thick safe move to finish off a position. Also, there is a capturing tesuji you should learn, which came up three times in this game!

at L4 would complete the capture of 6 B stones and create a strong outside wall with no bad aji. This would be a clearly won game. Instead you play a speculative move which provokes a fight.

at L5 would greatly strengthen your position below and threaten to kill the surrounded B side group. In contrast, if B gets to play L5, the balance of power completely changes. (As an aside, N7 was bad, forcing B to push through and break the W position. See if you can find a tesuji to capture the two B stones.)

is quite thin and also unnecessary. W had a tesuji to capture the 5 outsice cutting stones. at Q10 would have been a nice tesuji to punish the W overplay, capturing some outside stones and hence killing the W inside stones.

compensates largely for the big loss on the right side. W needs to settle his weak group here to consolidate the win. Giving up the 5 stones to the left on a small scale looks like a good solution. L9 is a fine idea, but a bit thin -- holding back to L8 would be much better. This move makes an immediate eye, and allows W to resist K6 with K7. Still, W got a fine result through .

at G7 is a little off the mark, as B demonstrated. Connecting at N5 would be fine, leaving 10 B stones cutoff and nearly dead. Just give up 5 stones if B invests another move to attack them. Locally J6 is the shape move, preempting any attack on this group and thereby threatening the B stones to the left. After B gets this move, instead of playing K6 (losing liberties), W should play G5 to keep the B stones to the left under attack. Or more simply block at J7 to give them up on a small scale. This still leaves W with an easy win.

:w102: is a thank-you move, forcing B to play strengthening moves he would like to play anyway. It is difficult for W to make territory with this move -- there is no moyo in sight.

:w130: is again very thin, as B again demonstrated. (:b147: should just capture at A6 to connect, leaving W dead). If you need to defend here, C4 is totally safe. And again there was a tesuji to capture the three outside B cutting stones.

:w190: seeks complications for no good reason. Surely G15 leads to a completely won game with no complications. :w206: should still be G15, planning to give up 2 stones if B cuts. Or switch to Q17, more or less asking B to resign.

Hi Mitsun,

This was immensely helpful. Thank you for the detailed feedback.

Things like at L4 are simple moves I really need to work on.

By the tesuji, do you mean netting? I can't tell you how I missed that three times in this game. For that matter, I did not see until you mentioned it.

What do you recommend instead of :w102: ?

EdLee wrote:

Hi Christopher,

A few questions.

The board after :

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ {AR C12 D15}
$$ {AR D15 C12}
$$ {AR E17 J17}
$$ {AR J17 E17}
$$ {AR L17 P17}
$$ {AR P17 L17}
$$ {AR Q15 R10}
$$ {AR R10 Q15}
$$ {AR Q5 R8}
$$ {AR R8 Q5}
$$ {AR P4 M3}
$$ {AR M3 P4}
$$ {AR E3 K3}
$$ {AR K3 E3}
$$ {AR C7 C10}
$$ {AR C10 C7}

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ {AR C12 D15}
$$ {AR D15 C12}
$$ {AR E17 J17}
$$ {AR J17 E17}
$$ {AR L17 P17}
$$ {AR P17 L17}
$$ {AR Q15 R10}
$$ {AR R10 Q15}
$$ {AR Q5 R8}
$$ {AR R8 Q5}
$$ {AR P4 M3}
$$ {AR M3 P4}
$$ {AR E3 K3}
$$ {AR K3 E3}
$$ {AR C7 C10}
$$ {AR C10 C7}[/go]

What's the size of each of the above eight gaps ?
( For slant gaps, just approximate. )

Gap size is not the only factor when we choose a move.
For , did you consider the gap sizes ?

How many gaps are wider than the one you picked for ?

Four.

Why didn't you pick one of the wider gaps ?

Hi EdLee. Thanks for this. My fuseki is pretty weak, and this is a really useful piece of advice for me. I never thought to consider the gap size in this way.


As always with the feedback I receive, I am making subpar, punishable mistakes throughout my entire game. I love how the advice "clicks" with me the moment I hear it from someone, and yet I still make dumb mistakes in the next game!

Kris2476 wrote:I love how the advice "clicks" with me the moment I hear it from someone,
and yet I still make dumb mistakes in the next game!

Hi Christopher,

This is a good observation, and an important one.

An obvious answer is that the Go board is so big, the combinations are practically infinite.
So the same situation may never happen again.

However, for local situations, there some common shapes -- the so-called "basic shapes" --
that come up often, again and again.

Here's one follow-up question to your observation: suppose some time in the near future --
you go back and review this exact game again. Are you sure you'll not make the same "dumb" mistakes ?
Sure, if you look at it again tomorrow, you'll likely remember.
But what about 30 days from now ? 60 days from now ? A year from now ?

The question becomes: if you really make a "dumb" mistake as you said, then how are you reinforcing
your brain to recognize and avoid this mistake in the future ? In this exact shape,
and in other variations ? That's a key question.

EdLee wrote:
The question becomes: if you really make a "dumb" mistake as you said, then how are you reinforcing
your brain to recognize and avoid this mistake in the future ? In this exact shape,
and in other variations ? That's a key question.

It's a fair question, and I don't have an excuse for my lack of an answer in this game. Some concepts, such as the net tesuji, are things that I know in a factual sense, and if you gave me a problem and said "find the net" I could.... yet, in actual play I miss it when the tesuji is easy to spot. Then, there are moves like :w102: which I play often, but don't actually know what to do instead.

I will say that there are a number of lessons that stick with me. I find I am more diligent at reading ladders than my opponents, for example. Another example was something you told me about a separate game, where I "banged my head against white" by extending underneath an enemy wall. So, I try my hardest to absorb the advice I receive.

As an answer to your question, I'll ask the same of you: what do you find helps you with fixing bad habits?

Hi Christopher,

My question was actually rhetorical.
Turns out it's not an easy question --
because I have seen some other people (other members in our club, for example),
and including myself, repeat the same mistakes again and again.
Please see also my pm to you.

Suggestions for W move 102:

Try counting the game at this point -- W has a big lead. Maybe W could lose if B invades and kills the lower left corner, then invades and lives in the upper right corner, then keeps a big territory in the upper left.

C4 or D4 or D5 or C8 would address the first concern. These are probably not the best moves if the game was close, but here they look like safe paths to victory.

Q17 or R17 would address the second concern. Even better would be O14, forcing B to capture at N5 to save ten stones, then Q17 or R17 to make this territory impregnable.

F17 or D17 or C17 would address the third concern.