Life In 19x19

xed_over wrote:http://eurogopro.org/opening.html

Cool... its about time.
Hope the league is successful.

My only concern - the 12 people a year to be admitted. This might lead to a dilution. I think it would make more sense to take the 12 top non-league players each year and let them compete within the league for a year, and the ones who, for example, break the 50% mark will get the EuroPro status. This way it will not only be ensured that the EuroPros stay strong, but that they become stronger each year. Not sure about dropping the bottom one/two of each year, but that would also help to keep the level high.

12 new pros per year !

I think it's far too much. It will be like japan where pro rank means almost nothing about their real strenght.

Weakest members in these 12 will lose pro status, so the number of professionals will be unchanged: only 12 every year. The situation in Japan is completely different.
In Korea they also think in direction of removing pro status from weak professionals

By the way, much more top Europeans were present at the meeting, Harry probably forgot to add their names. Nobody were against the idea of creating the new association.

I tried to make everything possible for defending the interests of top
players in EGF events, but without success.
No voting rights, no way
to see EGC prizes in advance, no way to decide the supergroup size, no
way to get some support on EGC in return for lectures.
It's a pity, but EGF makes nothing for top players. And the situation
in Europe is very bad, after losing main sponsors.

It's a good time to make the first step.

So where does the money come from?

Helel wrote:I see the political benefit and the advantage in attracting students etc.
But can it be called "pro" if it doesn't mean a guaranteed minimum income? Or does it?

Neither professional musicians or professional electricians have a guaranteed minimum income, to choose two professions at near-random. Of course, professional carries the expectation that there are opportunities for income, but that's not the same as a guarantee.

I will say, I have my doubts about dropping professionals, at least with a fixed 12 player pool. Take someone who hovers between 10th and 14th in Europe. Shall we say they were professional in 2010, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2017 but not in 2011, 2014, 2016? That sounds absurd to me--more like qualification in a league than professional status.

I wish you all the best of luck--I'm eager to see a project like this succeed.

hyperpape wrote:I will say, I have my doubts about dropping professionals, at least with a fixed 12 player pool. Take someone who hovers between 10th and 14th in Europe. Shall we say they were professional in 2010, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2017 but not in 2011, 2014, 2016? That sounds absurd to me--more like qualification in a league than professional status.

Yeah. This is why I like my idea better.

Each year, the newcomers who break the 50% mark (or whatever) are admitted to be pros, and each year any previous pro who found him/herself in bottom 2 (or whatever) gets dropped. Make it tough to get in (but still possible) and tough to get out (but still possible) by setting the breakpoints wisely.

There is still a possibility that somebody wins the league one year, then comes last the next year, then wins it again... but the only way to prevent this is to bestow life-time club membership. Which might also be a good idea... once you earn the status, you have it, like in the strong Asian countries. The problem with that in Europe might be that the league will hopefully raise the level of European Go, in which case the 'old' pros might not measure up to the 'new' standards...

xed_over wrote:http://eurogopro.org/opening.html

Good luck with the league. Having a Euro League which is broadcasted somehow (EuroGoTV) certainly is a great idea. And I am going to watch that. Though I have doubts about the attribute "professional". Can you be a professional without being able to live from your profession? (And this is nothing which depends on strong players but on the playing population in general and their willingness to watch and spend money. It's economy.) Should such an illusion be nurtured in strong newcomers? Is it meaningful to be professional for some years? (I am quite sure that would be very harmful to the korean baduk scene if they introduce any such thing as demoting professionals to amateurs. Which parents would still encourage their kids to study baduk and nothing else, if they can expect that they will be pro from 25 to 30 and then move in with them again, without any income? I certainly would not.)

Cheers Tapir

I agree with Helel. It's great to have such a league. But unless there is the money to support it you shouldn't call it professional. IMO to be called professional you need to earn at least several thousand dollars per year with playing go. So to support a professional league with 12 players should cost >100k$ per year.

if this project comes to life, put me first in the waiting list to get a related job (software development, administration...)

Yea, the whole concept of a "pro" in go is quite odd, and I don't think it translates very well. What exactly is this group going to do? Will there be regular face-to-face games? Or will the games be held online? 12 players in a league means a lot of games, and I can't imagine them all getting together often; the cost of travel alone would be enough to require a fair amount of sponsorship.

First of all let me wish the organisers all the luck . (They will need it)

Their (internal) organisation is in principle their own internal responsibility.
As not strong enough we can only advice. (and maybe they don't like our advice anyway)

Having said all this the EGF has (and I am a member of a member organisation) also may decide on their relation with this new group.
And that can depent on internal structure (are they democratic) , respectability (do they account properly) and representability (does the EGF think they do represent the strongest european players)

tapir wrote:Which parents would still encourage their kids to study baduk and nothing else, if they can expect that they will be pro from 25 to 30 and then move in with them again, without any income? I certainly would not.)

I would certainly have my trepidations, as I would if my child wanted to be an actor, professional athlete or English professor, but you should know that indirect demotions do occur in CJK. Many professionals redirect their energies when they find that they can't rise above 1-3d and that they aren't winning enough to make a living from game fees. No one tells you that you have to leave, but sticking around seems like a worse and worse idea each year. Nonetheless, parents in these countries encourage their children or get out of the way as their children insist on devoting time to Go.

Yea, the whole concept of a "pro" in go is quite odd, and I don't think it translates very well. What exactly is this group going to do? Will there be regular face-to-face games? Or will the games be held online? 12 players in a league means a lot of games, and I can't imagine them all getting together often; the cost of travel alone would be enough to require a fair amount of sponsorship.