Life In 19x19

Another milestone in computer Go. Zen19 is the first bot to hold a 3d rating on KGS for at least 20 games. Zen19 was also the first bot to hold 1d and 2d ratings.

You can see some more historical bot ratings here:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSBotRatings

yoyoma wrote:Another milestone in computer Go. Zen19 is the first bot to hold a 3d rating on KGS for at least 20 games. Zen19 was also the first bot to hold 1d and 2d ratings.

You can see some more historical bot ratings here:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSBotRatings

It's really too bad that I can't buy a copy of Zen19 and play it at home.

I only speak English.

-

usagi wrote:It's really too bad that I can't buy a copy of Zen19 and play it at home.
I only speak English.

I use Japanese software and I don't understand a word.

usagi wrote:

yoyoma wrote:Another milestone in computer Go. Zen19 is the first bot to hold a 3d rating on KGS for at least 20 games. Zen19 was also the first bot to hold 1d and 2d ratings.

You can see some more historical bot ratings here:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSBotRatings

It's really too bad that I can't buy a copy of Zen19 and play it at home.

I only speak English.

-

and where to buy the copy please? thanks

koks9dan wrote:and where to buy the copy please? thanks

You can (or could) buy zen at http://soft.mycom.co.jp/pcigo/tencho/index.html

But don't ask me what to press and so.

Did email Yamato (the creator of Zen) when we can expect an English version.

(or when can we buy the program at an english website)

But even then do you only buy the program on CD rom or can youi also download updates?

willemien wrote:

koks9dan wrote:and where to buy the copy please? thanks

You can (or could) buy zen at http://soft.mycom.co.jp/pcigo/tencho/index.html

But don't ask me what to press and so.

Did email Yamato (the creator of Zen) when we can expect an English version.

(or when can we buy the program at an english website)

But even then do you only buy the program on CD rom or can youi also download updates?

Isn't that a link to the first version of the software? You can find the second version here:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/毎日コミュニケーションズ-天頂の囲碁2/dp/B003XFYTTC

Kirby wrote:
Isn't that a link to the first version of the software? You can find the second version here:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/毎日コミュニケーションズ-天頂の囲碁2/dp/B003XFYTTC

sorry i don't know I cannot speak or read Japanese

Ps the link doesn't work but that is maybe becouse the japanese characters

willemien wrote:

Kirby wrote:
Isn't that a link to the first version of the software? You can find the second version here:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/毎日コミュニケーションズ-天頂の囲碁2/dp/B003XFYTTC

sorry i don't know I cannot speak or read Japanese

Ps the link doesn't work but that is maybe becouse the japanese characters

what about this link then?
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%AF%8E%E6%97 ... 003XFYTTC/

yoyoma wrote:Another milestone in computer Go. Zen19 is the first bot to hold a 3d rating on KGS for at least 20 games.

Zen is not just a 3 dan. KGS shows Zen to be half way between 3 dan and 4 dan.
Does KGS say what number Zen is in the list of all KGS players? I saw the 100th highest KGS player is 7 dan. Would Zen be ranked the 1,000th highest player in KGS?
Mark

Just out of curiosity, I have watched some of the computer programs playing on KGS yesterday.
I did not see Zend, but I have seen ManyFaces, ranked at 1d.

I was very surprised at the level it played. It seemed to be making plenty of completely retarded moves - and I mean REALLY RETARDED! Like pushing the losing side of a 3-move ladder which even a 15k should have seen as not working. And stuff like that. Repeatedly! And that should be the "strength" of the program, no? These few-move forced sequences which can be easily calculated. It made some moves which were not so bad, but the overall level was rather low, certainly not a 1d stuff. Not even a 5k stuff, most of the time, I'd say.

I had the impression that only the fast time controls (10 sec per move) allowed it to beat an opponent every now and then. I watched quite a few games and it only managed to win one - and that by what I assumed was a time-induced blunder by the opponent.

I watched another program which was 2k and two that were 4k - same story, pretty much.

Which makes me wonder... are these programs really playing at the advertised level?
If I buy MFoG and set it up at home, try to play a game against it on slower time controls, will it really play like a 1d? Or is that just a marketing gimmick? Is the rating skewed by the game timing or other factors (like playing a lot among each other, or something)? I do not wish to make a negative publicity for people writing Go programs here, but this is what I have observed on KGS. So I wonder...

Bantari wrote:Just out of curiosity, I have watched some of the computer programs playing on KGS yesterday.
I did not see Zend, but I have seen ManyFaces, ranked at 1d.

I was very surprised at the level it played. It seemed to be making plenty of completely retarded moves - and I mean REALLY RETARDED! Like pushing the losing side of a 3-move ladder which even a 15k should have seen as not working. And stuff like that. Repeatedly! And that should be the "strength" of the program, no? These few-move forced sequences which can be easily calculated. It made some moves which were not so bad, but the overall level was rather low, certainly not a 1d stuff. Not even a 5k stuff, most of the time, I'd say.

I had the impression that only the fast time controls (10 sec per move) allowed it to beat an opponent every now and then. I watched quite a few games and it only managed to win one - and that by what I assumed was a time-induced blunder by the opponent.

I watched another program which was 2k and two that were 4k - same story, pretty much.

Which makes me wonder... are these programs really playing at the advertised level?
If I buy MFoG and set it up at home, try to play a game against it on slower time controls, will it really play like a 1d? Or is that just a marketing gimmick? Is the rating skewed by the game timing or other factors (like playing a lot among each other, or something)? I do not wish to make a negative publicity for people writing Go programs here, but this is what I have observed on KGS. So I wonder...

Was it behind when it played like that? That's when the really retarded moves surface.

Bantari wrote:I had the impression that only the fast time controls (10 sec per move) allowed it to beat an opponent every now and then. I watched quite a few games and it only managed to win one - and that by what I assumed was a time-induced blunder by the opponent.

You can look at Zen19N, this is the same program but it plays 30+5x:30. It's currently on the border between 1k/1d.

usagi wrote:It's really too bad that I can't buy a copy of Zen19 and play it at home.

I only speak English.
-

Recently, ZenAuthor wrote in KGS chat that he intends
to make a western version of Zen available before
Christmas 2010.

Ingo.

CarlJung wrote:Was it behind when it played like that? That's when the really retarded moves surface.

Not really. It was sort-of throughout the game from what I noticed.
It might have been thinking it was behind, I cannot really say. The positions did not always look like that to me.

Bantari wrote:... are these programs really playing at the advertised level?
... 1d? Or is that just a marketing gimmick?
...

The playing style of Monte-Carlo bots (Many Faces is one)
is completely different from human playing style. Therefore,
it is very normal that sometimes

(A) humans think that such a bot plays very poor moves from time to time

and

(B) bots think that such a human plays very poor moves from time to time.

Bots do not speak, so we see only reactions of type (A).

Ingo.