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interesting l&d from pro game today.

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interesting l&d from pro game today.

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:17 am
by plankton
So I was watching the 23rd Female Meijin game today between Suzuki Ayumi 5p and Mukai Chiaki 4p.
There was an interesting lower left corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . X O . X O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . X O , X O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X X X X . X . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . X O . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O X O . X X . X X O O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 6 O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 b 0 . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . 9 1 7 8 . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . 3 . O . . . . O . X . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
First B (Mukai Chiaki 4p) makes the kikashi at a but then what does she do?
Edit: Don't look at the hidden part cause that's the answer.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . X O . X O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . X O , X O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X X X X . X . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . X O . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O X O . X X . X X O O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . 2 . O O X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . X . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
After the descent at 1 w tenukies because b is alive.
I did not find another way for b to live.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . X O . X O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . X O , X O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X X X X . X . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . X O . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O X O . X X . X X O O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | 9 O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 7 . O O O . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | 2 X X X O . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | 3 5 4 O . . . . O , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . X . . . O X O X . |
$$ | 6 X O b . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
w cant play this sequence because after the throwin at 8 b can just extend to connect at a and w has bad yose aji at b also.
A great invasion that was important in securing a 3.5 point victory for black!

Re: interesting l&d from pro game today.

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:56 am
by topazg
Thanks, interesting problem.

Thing is, I have no problem reading the life of the group from the position you gave. What I would have a problem with in a game situation, is reading whether :w10: is necessary. Not being able to read the fight with and without that cutting point would encourage me not to try to invade at all, but I suspect both of these had read out the entire sequence before :w2: was placed on the board.

Re: interesting l&d from pro game today.

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:58 am
by plankton
I hope maybe someone will have more trouble with it than you.

Go ahead tho and discuss the moves leading up to this position:

Here is a diagram and what i was thinking as i watched.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O O O . 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 O O O . X O . X O X . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . X O , X O X . 6 X 7 . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X X X X . X . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . X O . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O X O . X X . X X O O X . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
In the aftermath of black's attack on the counterpincered d12 stone the position looks difficult for white.
Black's 3 calmly secures the right side knowing that it will be hard for white to make too much territory on the bottom.
white 4-8 is a strong sequence taking the upper left corner in sente but...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . X O . X O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . X O , X O X 1 O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X X X X . X . 3 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . X . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . X O . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O X O . X X . X X O O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 6 . 5 . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Black 5 and 7 drop like bombs into the white framework, dashing white's attempts at optimism at 4 and 2(in the previous diagram).

Sometimes i wish that these games were viewable on kgs because then there would be others willing to discuss the game as it was being played.

Re: interesting l&d from pro game today.

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:03 am
by topazg
B9's relationship with :b7: in the second diagram makes me wonder whether :w2: in the first diagram was a mistake through overoptimism, but at pro level I suspect White was aware the limitations of the position and did it any because it was still the best with the local situation that could be done.

:b5: and :b7: in the second dia are still beautiful :)

Re: interesting l&d from pro game today.

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:21 am
by prokofiev
Here's what I read first as a way to live:
It seems to work (for some of the same reasons the game move worked) but it's surely a worse way to live.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . X O . X O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . X O , X O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X X X X . X . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . X O . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O X O . X X . X X O O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | 4 O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 a . O O O . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | 7 . 5 O . . . . O , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . X 1 O . . . . O . X . . . O X O X . |
$$ | b X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Now 'a' and 'b' are miai.

Variations:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . X O . X O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . X O , X O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X X X X . X . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . X O . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O X O . X X . X X O O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | 6 O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 4 . O O O . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | 5 X X X O . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . X 1 O . . . . O . X . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . X O . X O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . X O , X O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X X X X . X . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . X O . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O X O . X X . X X O O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | 6 O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 . . O O O . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . O , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . X 1 O . . . . O . X . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . X O . X O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . X O , X O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X X X X . X . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . X O . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O X O . X X . X X O O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . X 1 O . . . . O . X . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X O 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: interesting l&d from pro game today.

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:51 am
by plankton
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . X O . X O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . X O , X O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X X X X . X . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . X O . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O X O . X X . X X O O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | 6 O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 4 . O O O . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | 5 X X X O . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . X 1 O . . . . O . X . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
great. i had failed to notice that b can play 5 and make connection and 7 miai.
Unfortunately it is a bad exchange to play 1 for 2 because it will give w a better yose.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . X O . X O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . X O , X O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X X X X . X . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . X O . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O X O . X X . X X O O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 . . O O O . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . X 1 O . . . . O . X . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Also. b should play 3 at 4 instead for more points or better yet play 1 at 4.(will it die then?)

Re: interesting l&d from pro game today.

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:44 am
by prokofiev
plankton wrote:
Unfortunately it is a bad exchange to play 1 for 2 because it will give w a better yose.

Also. b should play 3 at 4 instead for more points or better yet play 1 at 4.(will it die then?)
Thanks. Unfortunately I read out my line that works and then read what you had hidden, which is rather better in terms of points/yose.

I do like your connection threat "after the fact": I hadn't noticed that the connection threat could still be used after 3 is omitted.

Re: interesting l&d from pro game today.

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:18 pm
by Alakazam
I thought the life and death in your first post would be very easy for you, since you're 'kgs 2d' no? Seems like Black's solution #2 is to play Kosumi (diagonal) on the first line threatening to connect to an outside group, then go back and play 2-1. 2-1, increasing space in the corner, is the only thinkable move.

Re: interesting l&d from pro game today.

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:36 pm
by plankton
well thanks for your reply even though you seem to be somewhat mistrustful of me.

I did make a mistake in my first post though. it turns out that this is more of a yose problem than a genuine life and death problem.

But there is no correct solution #2. if b had played the wrong move i think w would have won the game.

Also if you would like to participate in the problem answering in the future please hide your post with the hide tags.

Re: interesting l&d from pro game today.

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:55 am
by Alakazam
Sorry ><
All times are UTC-07:00
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