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Studying Microendgame and Infinitesimals

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:52 am
by RobertJasiek
This thread is for our study of microendgame and infinitesimals, as introduced in Mathematical Go Endgames, other texts or sources. I have made several attempts to understand infinitesimals and think others share the frustration. Rather soon one meets a wall when something essential remains unclear and deeper learning is blocked. I start with my current difficulties of understanding, will add more later and invite you to do alike or clarify.

***

QUESTION 1

Why is the chilled count of the following position 2UP * ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Initial position
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . O O . . . O X .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black follower
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . O O X . . O X .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
This has the chilled count 0.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White follower
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . O O O . . O X .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
This game is a chilled {0|*}, which is defined to be UP.

From the followers, it follows that the initial position has the chilled count {0 | {0|*}} = {0|UP}.

However, I do not understand how we get 2UP *.

***

QUESTION 2

Mathematical Go Endgames distinguishes incentive and temperature. I have not really tried to understand the mathematical definitions but wonder what is the practical difference between the two terms as used in the book?

***

QUESTION 3

Now I study table E11, example 3.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Initial position
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . X X X X X X .
$$ . X . . . . X .
$$ . X . O . X X .
$$ . X X O X X . .
$$ . . . O . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]
The book specifies the chilled count as 0, adds one black chilling mark in the diagram and mentions the incentive -1. I do not care about the incentive yet but first try to understand: Why is the chilled count 0?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black follower
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . X X X X X X .
$$ . X . X . . X .
$$ . X . O . X X .
$$ . X X O X X . .
$$ . . . O . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]
In unchilled go, the count is B = 0.5 + 0.75 = 1.25 and the move value is 0.75.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White follower
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . X X X X X X .
$$ . X . O . . X .
$$ . X . O . X X .
$$ . X X O X X . .
$$ . . . O . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]
In unchilled go, the count is W = 0.5.

From the counts of the followers, we get the initial position's tentative gote move value (B - W) / 2 = (1.25 - 0.5) / 2 = 0.75 / 2 = 0.375. The move values from the initial position to the black follower increase so the initial position is a local sente. This means its move value is the sente move value but we first need to consider the sente follower:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Sente sequence
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . X X X X X X .
$$ . X . 1 . . X .
$$ . X . O 2 X X .
$$ . X X O X X . .
$$ . . . O . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Sente follower
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . X X X X X X .
$$ . X . X . . X .
$$ . X . O O X X .
$$ . X X O X X . .
$$ . . . O . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]
The unchilled count of the sente follower is S = 0.5 + 0.5 = 1.

The white follower's count is the reverse sente follower's count R = W = 0.5.

The initial position's sente move value is S - R = 1 - 0.5 = 0.5.

However, I am more interested in the initial position's unchilled count C, which is the inherited count of the sente follower C = S = 1.

Now, I recall that the book added a tax mark in the diagram, so the chilled count C1 (chilled by 1) of the initial position is C1 = 0.

Ok, if I did it right, I seem to have answered my own question but - did I do everything right? What bugs me even more is infinitesimals: why do infinitesimals not occur in the chilled count of the initial position? Do they occur in the unchilled count of the initial position?

Re: Studying Microendgame and Infinitesimals

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:01 pm
by Bill Spight
RobertJasiek wrote:This thread is for our study of microendgame and infinitesimals, as introduced in Mathematical Go Endgames, other texts or sources. I have made several attempts to understand infinitesimals and think others share the frustration. Rather soon one meets a wall when something essential remains unclear and deeper learning is blocked. I start with my current difficulties of understanding, will add more later and invite you to do alike or clarify.

***

QUESTION 1

Why is the chilled count of the following position 2UP * ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Initial position
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . O O . . . O X .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
3.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black follower
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . O O B . . O X .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
3. In chilled go, the Black play, :bc:, costs one point. So the local count is 4 - 1 = 3.
This has the chilled count 0.
In Mathematical Go Berlekamp and Wolfe are interested in infinitesimals and fractions, so they mostly ignore integers. It is not that a position is worth 3 + ^^*, it is that the infinitesimal is ^^*, so that's what they call it. They don't really mean that the count is 0. They just don't care which integer it is, for the purposes of the book.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White follower
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . O O W . . O X .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
This game is a chilled {0|*}, which is defined to be UP.

From the followers, it follows that the initial position has the chilled count {0 | {0|*}} = {0|UP}.

However, I do not understand how we get 2UP *.
The marked White play costs White one point, so the chilled count is 2 + 1 = 3. The value of the position is then 3 + ^. And the chilled value of the initial position is 3 + ^^*.

Each move before the end in such a corridor gains v*. But that still does not show how we get ^^*.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Zero
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . O O . . . O X .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . O O O O O O . .
$$ . O X . . X X X .
$$ . O O O O O O . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . O O O O O O . .
$$ . O X . . X X X .
$$ . O O O O O O . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . O O O O . O X .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
What we have here is ^^* + v + v + * = 0. I have even made it so that the actual count is 0. No matter who plays first in these corridors, the result with correct play is 0. :) QED.
***
QUESTION 2

Mathematical Go Endgames distinguishes incentive and temperature. I have not really tried to understand the mathematical definitions but wonder what is the practical difference between the two terms as used in the book?
An incentive is the difference between a position and one of its followers. Temperature is equivalent to miai value. Each tells us something about the value of a play. An incentive gives more information than the temperature, however.


QUESTION 3

Now I study table E11, example 3.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Initial position
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . X X X X X X .
$$ . X . . . . X .
$$ . X . O . X X .
$$ . X X O X X . .
$$ . . . O . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]
The book specifies the chilled count as 0, adds one black chilling mark in the diagram and mentions the incentive -1. I do not care about the incentive yet but first try to understand: Why is the chilled count 0?
It's not, really. The black mark indicates that the count is actually 1.

The temperature is -1. Which means that, if we wished, we could leave this position as is at the end of the game and count it as one point of territory for Black. But modern rules do not allow that, so we play it out. :)

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:28 pm
by EdLee
Hi Robert, Bill ( or anyone with access to the relevant source materials):

Is it possible to have a very quick cheat-sheet style summary of the most basic terms ? ( UP, chilled, etc. ) Thanks.

Re: Studying Microendgame and Infinitesimals

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:03 am
by RobertJasiek
Bill, I find the book's approach to ignore integers and only consider fractions and infinitesimals useful. We can use common methods to calculate integers and fractions. Ignoring the integers eases study of infinitesimals, IMO.

Why can we not say that a position is worth 3 + ^^*? Is this different to saying that it is worth 3 and has the infinitesimals ^^*? Uhm, do I get this right: the value of a position is 3 but the CHILLED value of that position is 3 + ^^*? Can we not just abbreviate this by saying "the position is worth 3^^*"?

As soon as we know the chilled counts, we can derive the infinitesimal gains of moves and say "each move before the end in such a corridor gains v*. So am I right that we cannot do vice versa?

Your proof is convincing, thanks. However, I would really prefer to derive ^^* for only the initial position itself from its followers. Is this impossible? Having to prove via an imagined position with a contrieved environment is not so convincing for the typical go player.

IIUYC, incentive and temperature can differ for infinitesimals because Black and White can have different incentives, such as v for Black or ^* for White (see Figure 2.8 in Mathematical Go Endgames). So incentives do not necessarily describes mean values, as from temperatures.

EdLee, I hope you know how to read a combinatorial game in {L|R} annotation and are aware of miai counting (per move value counting). The game star is * := {0|0} (like a territory scoring dame or a chilled 1 point simple gote, which is capturing or connecting one stone). The game UP is ^ := {0|*} (example see earlier messages, the symbol is an arrow upwards). The game DOWN is v := {*|0} (example see earlier messages, the symbol is an arrow downwards).

A TINY is written with a thick font + . It occurs when White might connect more than a stone at the end of an empty corridor. The points connected minus 2 (to ignore the leading stone itself) is the value. E.g., connecting p points at the end of a corridor is +p-2, where p-2 is written as a index of the + symbol. So let me write TINYp-2. E.g., if p = 3, we write TINY1.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B TINY1
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X .
$$ . O . . O . X .
$$ . . X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]
If White may make successive local plays and finally connect the stone(s) at the end of the corridor...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X .
$$ . O O O O . X .
$$ . . X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]
...he connects 3 points, of which we ignore 2. So the index of the TINY is 1 and we write TINY1 or +1 (where the 1 is an index).

MINY is for the colour-inverse shapes of those generating a TINY. So Black attacks the corridor and we write a thick font - with the appropriate index.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B MINY1
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . O O O O O .
$$ . X . . X . O .
$$ . . O O O O O .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]
Now, obviously, the empty heads of corridors have different lengths. The length L is the number of the corridor's empty head's intersections minus 2 and is annotated as 0^L (this time, it is annotated like a power and, if the text formatting allows it, without the power sign ^ especially because we might confuse it with an UP; this is not an UP here). The following captions express TINYs and MINYs as + or - (imagine thick font).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B +1
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X .
$$ . O . . O . X .
$$ . . X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 0^1|+1
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . O . . . O . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 0^2|+1
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X X X .
$$ . O . . . . O . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B -1
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . O O O O O .
$$ . X . . X . O .
$$ . . O O O O O .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B -1|0^1
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . O O O O O O .
$$ . X . . . X . O .
$$ . . O O O O O O .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B -1|0^2
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . O O O O O O O .
$$ . X . . . . X . O .
$$ . . O O O O O O O .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
So far the definitions. Next, you need to learn arithmetics with infinitesimals.

EDIT

Re:

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:14 am
by Bill Spight
EdLee wrote:Hi Robert, Bill ( or anyone with access to the relevant source materials):

Is it possible to have a very quick cheat-sheet style summary of the most basic terms ? ( UP, chilled, etc. ) Thanks.
See https://senseis.xmp.net/?ChilledGo on SL. :)

Re: Studying Microendgame and Infinitesimals

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:18 am
by RobertJasiek
QUESTION 4:

Chilling loses all *s, says Mathematical Go Endgames. Why? What does this mean in practice?

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:24 am
by EdLee
Thanks.

Re: Studying Microendgame and Infinitesimals

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:37 am
by Bill Spight
RobertJasiek wrote:QUESTION 4:

Chilling loses all *s, says Mathematical Go Endgames. Why? What does this mean in practice?
There it is using * to represent a dame in territory scoring. In practice, it means that we can ignore the dame. :)

OC, in chilled go * represents the game, {1 | -1} + X, where X is a number, in territory scoring.

Similarly, a dame in territory scoring is {1 | -1} in area scoring.

Re: Studying Microendgame and Infinitesimals

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:49 am
by Bill Spight
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Up + Down
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . O O O . . O X .
$$ . . X X X X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . O O O O O O . .
$$ . O X . . X X X .
$$ . O O O O O O . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Above is a prototypical UP (written ^), below is a prototypical DOWN (written v). We can ignore the integer values.

In territory scoring this UP is written {3 || 2 | 0}, or 2 + {1 || 0 | -2}. In chilled go it is written 2 + {0 || 0 | 0}, or 2 + ^.

There are other forms. For instance,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B UP
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . O O O O X X X .
$$ . O . . X . . X .
$$ . O O O O X X X .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
UP and DOWN are significant because in a fight to get the last play they are analogous to outside liberties in a semeai.

Re: Studying Microendgame and Infinitesimals

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:07 am
by vier
RobertJasiek wrote:This thread is for our study of microendgame and infinitesimals, as introduced in Mathematical Go Endgames, other texts or sources. I have made several attempts to understand infinitesimals and think others share the frustration. Rather soon one meets a wall when something essential remains unclear and deeper learning is blocked.
My experience with Conway's ONAG is that all is exceptionally clear.
No frustration at all.
(I am a mathematician, if you are not, you may have a different opinion.)

Reading Berlekamp-Wolfe on the other hand is not pleasant.
Lots of fuzzy talk without precise definitions.
Only later in the book the precise definitions are given,
but one cannot start at the point where the text gets more precise
because for some concepts it refers back to the fuzzier part.

I do not know any books on the application of combinatorial game theory to Go
that are precise, and pleasant reading. Bill Spight should write one.

Re: Studying Microendgame and Infinitesimals

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:49 am
by RobertJasiek
Endgame values are a very rich topic already without entering the microendgame. Writing about it precise and pleasant for reading can require spending a whole book, or two, on only the microendgame. I share your desire to have such books but they are not the first priority. After all, they are only about the last point, so to say. Getting the larger endgames explained is more important. Nevertheless, I do want to get that last point, ugh:)

Re: Studying Microendgame and Infinitesimals

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:59 am
by Bill Spight
vier wrote:I do not know any books on the application of combinatorial game theory to Go that are precise, and pleasant reading. Bill Spight should write one.
Thank you for the vote of confidence. :) I know some people who find my writing unpeasant. ;)

Re: Studying Microendgame and Infinitesimals

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:16 am
by RobertJasiek
QUESTION 5:

Suppose the example {100||50|4} and the task of determining any infinitesimals. Can we simply chill to {0||0|0} and identify UP? Or is this not UP but chilled to {99||50|6} and is without infinitesimals?

Re: Studying Microendgame and Infinitesimals

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:39 pm
by Bill Spight
RobertJasiek wrote:QUESTION 5:

Suppose the example {100||50|4} and the task of determining any infinitesimals. Can we simply chill to {0||0|0} and identify UP? Or is this not UP but chilled to {99||50|6} and is without infinitesimals?
Yes, {100||50|4} chills to {99||50|6}.

You can generalize infinitesimals, however. For instance, around temperature 36.5 {100||50|4} can behave like 63.5 + *. See https://senseis.xmp.net/?EndgameProblem24 for a low temperature example of non-infinitesimals acting like infinitesimals. :)

Re: Studying Microendgame and Infinitesimals

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:20 am
by RobertJasiek
QUESTION 6:

I am trying to understand Mathematical Go Endgames, E.12 example 4.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . X X X . . .
$$ . X X X . X X . .
$$ . X . . . . X . .
$$ . X . O . X X . .
$$ . X X O X X . . .
$$ . . . O . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
The book states the chilled count 1/2v and shows one black dot so the unmarked chilled count is 1 1/2v. How to verify this? Let's see how far I get:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B black follower
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . X X X . . .
$$ . X X X . X X . .
$$ . X . 1 . . X . .
$$ . X e O f X X . .
$$ . X X O X X . . .
$$ . . . O . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
We know e = 1/2 and f = 2^ so the black follower's count is B = 1/2 + 2^ = 2 1/2^.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W white follower
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . X X X . . .
$$ . X X X . X X . .
$$ . X . 2 1 . X . .
$$ . X e O 3 X X . .
$$ . X X O X X . . .
$$ . . . O . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
The white follower's count is W = 1/2.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . X X X . . .
$$ . X X X . X X . .
$$ . X . . . . X . .
$$ . X . O . X X . .
$$ . X X O X X . . .
$$ . . . O . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Therefore, the initial local endgame is {2 1/2^|1/2} = 1 1/2 + {1^|-1}.

To get the chilled count, do we have to chill {1^|-1}?

How to chill {1^|-1}?

Suppose chilling gives {^|0}. Can this game be simplified and how?

Similarly for the colour-inverse case: can {0|v} be simplified and how?