Life In 19x19

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:06 pm**

. . .but definitely weak. I started a coupla years ago, but played rarely. Now I want to come back to Go with full force. I play and study whenever I can. Any clues, tips, etc. are more than welcome.

I'm DethGo btw. ^_^

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:27 am**

12, I'd take the corner instead at c4. Seems submissive but pressing down like you did invites a difficult fight heavy group if B cuts at D7. Perhaps its possible to keep running on the fourth line at D7 instead of pushing down?

20, jumping invites a difficult cut at both d10 and d8. Perhaps play solidly at d10 or d8.

34, Now you're paying the price of having been cut. If you run out you damage the other stones. If you take the corner you'll get shut in.

Edit: Now that I look at the rest, you didn't settle the lower left corner until move 170. How would you have managed a knights move by black down there? Could you have lived? It's huge.

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:38 am**

Abstract: Three general advices: "play on 9x9", "study basic L&D", "connect your stones"

When I started playing I have been told that it was recommended to play exclusively on 9x9 board until you are around 15 kyu.
I did so and when I switched to 19x19 board some time later, I realized I was already around 9 kyu.

The problem with 19x19 board at the beginning is that the strategical concepts which are far too difficult for your level are more emphasized than on 9x9. First you need to master these "relatively simple" (whatever it means

) tactics on 9x9 board.

Study basic life and death. For example, try to find how you could kill the black group in the top left corner.

If you anyway insist in playing on 19x19, the motto is "connect your stones, separate your opponents".

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:11 am**

Try to finish 100 games as quickly as you can afford to. 9x9, 13x13, or 19x19 doesn't matter.

"connect your stones, separate your opponent's" is a bad guideline.

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:19 am**

EdLee wrote:"connect your stones, separate your opponent's" is a bad guideline.

why?

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:46 am**

Is white's move here better for white or black?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of the circled stones, which are the most important to save?

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White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move blocks off the corner better than your move at the triangled point. Can you see that black did not need to respond to your move at the triangled point at all?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | T . X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Can white tenuki here and still live?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . X X . O . . . X . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | O . X O . O X . . . O O X O O O . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . X . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That should be plenty to think about in your next games

.

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:38 am**

entropi wrote:why?

Because it is wrong, just as it is a bad guideline to suggest "save your stones; kill your opponent's."
It is simply not what Go is about.

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:02 pm**

I think cutting and connecting make good general guidelines for play. It's also an idea Dieter Verhofstadt expresses in some SL pages he's written:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?DieterVerhofstadt%2FAdviceToBeginners

http://senseis.xmp.net/?DieterVerhofstadt%2FTeachingExperiences

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:14 pm**

I think that maybe it's better to convey the message that connecting stones is a way of making strength, separating stones is a way of creating weakness. This leads naturally to the more advanced concepts that disconnecting strong groups is meaningless. The first advice gives an order but doesn't explain why.

So I'm sorta with Ed Lee here.

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:52 pm**

EdLee wrote:"connect your stones, separate your opponent's" is a bad guideline.

For whom? Keeping your stones connected and cutting when it is feasible is a fundamental principle. It is a huge factor in making groups weak or strong. It may not be what go is about, but if someone is failing to do it, then it's certainly a good guideline for them. Especially if their previous guideline was: "don't let my opponent capture any of my stones." You have to learn to walk before you can run, no?

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:39 pm**

daal wrote:It may not be what go is about, but if someone is failing to do it, then it's certainly a good guideline for them.

Not necessarily.

If someone fails to connect or cut when it is important, explain to them why in that situation.
It is not good to present it as an overall blanket guideline ("motto"), especially without some warning and caveat.

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:00 pm**

daal wrote:
EdLee wrote:"connect your stones, separate your opponent's" is a bad guideline.

For whom? Keeping your stones connected and cutting when it is feasible is a fundamental principle. It is a huge factor in making groups weak or strong. It may not be what go is about, but if someone is failing to do it, then it's certainly a good guideline for them. Especially if their previous guideline was: "don't let my opponent capture any of my stones." You have to learn to walk before you can run, no?

I agree with you on this. The argument that this teaches bad habits if the beginner always applies the rule makes sense, but I don't think it's actually at all important in real life (at least, I haven't noticed it being).

I'm not saying that one should present any particular phrase as pure truth to a beginner, but I don't see a problem with generalising in some situations. Where there are exceptions, they'll work it out for themselves, or maybe ask about it, or I'll point it out to them soon enough.

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:25 pm**

EdLee wrote:It is not good to present it as an overall blanket guideline ("motto"), especially without some warning and caveat.

But isn't that true for every Go Proverb?

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:30 pm**

Down with go proverbs!

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:14 pm**

xed_over wrote:But isn't that true for every Go Proverb?

Exactly. And this is not even one.

Life In 19x19

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