Life In 19x19

I play all of my actual real life Go against one person, the only person I know who can play at all or really has an interest. He takes a five stone handicap usually, and that will put us about even in most cases, he has only won once. Anyway, he plays a specific move that I haven't really been able to figure out what to do with. Every time a make a low approach on a 4-4 point, he uses a one space jump down toward the wall to seemingly really limit my options of corner invasion without a large risk (his lower skill level comes not from his knowledge of life and death, which we are pretty even with, but from his knowledge of playing multipurpose moves and the concepts of thickness and making stones work for the whole board). So what's a recommended idea for dealing with this? I'll try to post a game or at least an opening like this soon.

thx

This?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

exactly that. I usually play another low approach on the other side, which he follows with the same one space jump, then i come with a shoulder hit or one off from that to hem him in somewhat.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . x . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . , . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Don't know how I'd respond to the original move, but I think isn't good, because it leaves a weakness at x.

hem:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 9 O 4 8 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 2 7 . . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 . X 5 6 . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . , . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 9 O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 3 X 7 . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . 2 4 5 O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 X 6 . , . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

i feel like i've had it play out like this before. I don't know if it's my inexperience or what, but these moves seem to get me. He is thick toward my lone stone, it's intimidating. He usually will lose one corner to overconcentration that I can eventually kill. And after this series of moves I invade another corner and try for moyo and thickness any ladders can run to, giving him the side is my whole play style off?

You are expecting a drastic punishment, but there isn't one. Black has taken too small of a territory with those two moves; if both white stones live, black has essentially punished himself.

That said, this is probably fine in a handicap game, but I don't think I would play in an even game because of this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . , . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Instead I would consider a-c below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . c . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . , . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

It really depends on the rest of the board.

that seems totally reasonable, thanks for the input.

don't forget you also tenuki (play somewhere else) and leave the corner alone.
Later in the game you might be able to make a better decision of what to play in that corner.

Bad moves punish themselves.

Think of the Black corner moves as a guy who has done no more than put two shoes on, but left the laces untied. You wouldn't then rush to push him to make him fall over. You'd be a bit more subtle. Bet him 50 quid you can beat him in a foot-race, then run (i.e. play elsewhere).

Kirby wrote:This?

$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

That is an ancient joseki. It is not a bad play by Black in a 5 stone game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

But is too passive. Your problem comes from . You do not really have an attack against the Black corner, do you. Nor can you form a strong wall. Just accept that you have made a small gain, and continue normally.

Bill Spight wrote:That is an ancient joseki. It is not a bad play by Black in a 5 stone game.

It can even be found in a few even games between professionals.

So I think that there is nothing that should be "punished".

It's not a "bad" move locally but it misses two basic principles of (handicap) go. Black jumps toward the side to make territory in the corner but the 4-4 point is not efficient at making territory. Second, Black starts off a five stone game with lots of influence. Essentially the whole board is a black moyo. In view of that Black should play a moyo-oriented game, not try to make small territories. He isn't making use of the other handicap stones.

Bill Spight wrote:

$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

But is too passive. Your problem comes from . You do not really have an attack against the Black corner, do you. Nor can you form a strong wall. Just accept that you have made a small gain, and continue normally.

Interesting, I was thinking that is natural. Not with any expectation of attacking black's corner - but only to contain him there, to deny his group access to the center.

zinger wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

But is too passive. Your problem comes from . You do not really have an attack against the Black corner, do you. Nor can you form a strong wall. Just accept that you have made a small gain, and continue normally.

Interesting, I was thinking that is natural. Not with any expectation of attacking black's corner - but only to contain him there, to deny his group access to the center.

Yeah seems good to me too and is probably what I would play in a handicap game, where keeping groups contained is key. There's also some aji for monkeying around with the corner later. Bill, is there a local move you'd recommend over it?

My guess is that early in a handicap game, denying black access to the center isn't enough of a goal. Until white is building something on the outside, it doesn't matter enough for black's group to poke its head out.