Life In 19x19

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 12:54 pm**

Im very new to this game. My grandfather and I have been playing for about a month now and there is something we aren't sure about.

If white has a territory and black creates a territory inside of White's territory does Black's territory remain prisoners or does he get those territory points. (Assuming that both players pass and it is the end of the game.)

Thanks.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 1:36 pm**

Hi Joe621, Welcome.

Good question.

Assume territory scoring and 0.0 komi for the following diagrams.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Board 1 $$ ------------------- $$ | O O O O O O O O | $$ | O O X X X X X O | $$ | O O X . . . X O | $$ | O O X . . . X O | $$ | O O X X X X X O | $$ | . O O O O O O O | $$ | O . O O O O O O | $$ -------------------[/go]

Black has 6 points, White has 2 points.
( Important: both B and W are alive on Board 1. )

However, if Black is dead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Board 2 $$ ----------------- $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | O O X . . X O | $$ | O O X . . X O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O . O O O O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Then White has ( 2 + 28 ) = 30 points; Black has 0 points.
( Each dead

stone on the board counts as 2 points for White. )

Important: the Life-and-Death status of every group on the board, at the end of the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Board 3 $$ ------------------- $$ | O O O O O O O O | $$ | O O X X X X X O | $$ | O O X . X . X O | $$ | O O X X X X X O | $$ | . O O O O O O O | $$ | O . O O O O O O | $$ -------------------[/go]

Board 3: White has 2 points, Black also has 2 points.

If you come across other shapes and boards with questions, please feel free to post them here. People will try to answer.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 2:14 pm**

EdLee wrote:Hi Joe621, Welcome. Good question.

Assume territory scoring and 0.0 komi for the following diagrams.

$$B Board 1
$$ -------------------
$$ | O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . . . X O |
$$ | O O X . . . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O O |
$$ -------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 1 $$ ------------------- $$ | O O O O O O O O | $$ | O O X X X X X O | $$ | O O X . . . X O | $$ | O O X . . . X O | $$ | O O X X X X X O | $$ | . O O O O O O O | $$ | O . O O O O O O | $$ -------------------[/go]
Black has 6 points, White has 2 points.
( Important: both B and W are alive on Board 1. )

However, if Black is dead:
$$B Board 2
$$ -----------------
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . . X O |
$$ | O O X . . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 2 $$ ----------------- $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | O O X . . X O | $$ | O O X . . X O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O . O O O O O | $$ -----------------[/go]
Then White has ( 2 + 28 ) = 30 points; Black has 0 points.
( Each dead stone on the board counts as 2 points for White. )

Important: the Life-and-Death status of every group on the board, at the end of the game.

If you come across other shapes and boards with questions, please feel free to post them here. People will try to answer.

Ah, so if black is capable of forming two eyes then even with white surrounding Black's territory Black still gets points for that territory?

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 2:19 pm**

Hi Joe621,

if black is capable of forming two eyes then even with white surrounding Black's territory Black still gets points for that territory?

If a Black group has 2 real eyes, then this group is unconditionally alive -- it doesn't matter where it is located on the board -- Black keeps her points for this group, yes.

However, if a Black group doesn't have 2 real eyes, then it depends. There are different scenarios; we need to see the exact board.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 2:27 pm**

Thank you. That helped me a lot. I was reading elsewhere and people were literally arguing back and fourth about it. I'm glad I found these forums

Thanks again.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 2:32 pm**

Hi Joe, You're very welcome.

Go is very tricky sometimes.

People have very heated discussions here, too!

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 3:20 pm**

Joe621 wrote: Ah, so if black is capable of forming two eyes then even with white surrounding Black's territory Black still gets points for that territory?

Rather than say "If Black is capable of forming two eyes" I would say "If White is not able to kill Black". A lot of people get hung up early on with the two eyes thing and forget that the rules of the game don't actually refer to eyes at all. It is possible to be unkillable without having two eyes.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 6:52 pm**

And then you have things like seki and related complications

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | X X X . . . $$ | O O X . . . $$ | . O X , . . $$ | O O X X X X $$ | . X O O O X $$ | X . O . O X $$ +-------------[/go]

Chosei

Hanezeki

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 7:34 pm**

tchan001 wrote:And then you have things like seki and related complications
$$Bc
$$ | X X X . . .
$$ | O O X . . .
$$ | . O X , . .
$$ | O O X X X X
$$ | . X O O O X
$$ | X . O . O X
$$ +-------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc $$ | X X X . . . $$ | O O X . . . $$ | . O X , . . $$ | O O X X X X $$ | . X O O O X $$ | X . O . O X $$ +-------------[/go]
Chosei

Hanezeki

Okay so if that was the end of the game how would you count the score, who gets what?

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 7:40 pm**

Hi Joe,

Then it depends on which scoring system you're using, area scoring v. territory scoring. ( re: assumption in post 2

)
There are nuances; Sensei's Library probably has some nice discussions.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 7:41 pm**

EdLee wrote:Hi Joe621, Welcome. Good question.

Assume territory scoring and 0.0 komi for the following diagrams.

$$B Board 1
$$ -------------------
$$ | O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . . . X O |
$$ | O O X . . . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O O |
$$ -------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 1 $$ ------------------- $$ | O O O O O O O O | $$ | O O X X X X X O | $$ | O O X . . . X O | $$ | O O X . . . X O | $$ | O O X X X X X O | $$ | . O O O O O O O | $$ | O . O O O O O O | $$ -------------------[/go]
Black has 6 points, White has 2 points.
( Important: both B and W are alive on Board 1. )

However, if Black is dead:
$$B Board 2
$$ -----------------
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . . X O |
$$ | O O X . . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 2 $$ ----------------- $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | O O X . . X O | $$ | O O X . . X O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O . O O O O O | $$ -----------------[/go]
Then White has ( 2 + 28 ) = 30 points; Black has 0 points.
( Each dead stone on the board counts as 2 points for White. )

Important: the Life-and-Death status of every group on the board, at the end of the game.

$$B Board 3
$$ -------------------
$$ | O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . X . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O O |
$$ -------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 3 $$ ------------------- $$ | O O O O O O O O | $$ | O O X X X X X O | $$ | O O X . X . X O | $$ | O O X X X X X O | $$ | . O O O O O O O | $$ | O . O O O O O O | $$ -------------------[/go]
Board 3: White has 2 points, Black also has 2 points.

If you come across other shapes and boards with questions, please feel free to post them here. People will try to answer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Board 2 $$ ----------------- $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | O . X X X X O | $$ | O . X . . X O | $$ | O . X . . X O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | . O O . . . O | $$ | O . O O O O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Okay probably a stupid question but what if the second example you showed looks like this ^

Would the black still be dead? W:36 B:0?

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 7:44 pm**

EdLee wrote:Hi Joe,

Then it depends on which scoring system you're using, area scoring v. territory scoring. ( re: assumption in post 2 )
There are nuances; Sensei's Library probably has some nice discussions.

Territory scoring is all I know, so territory.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 8:43 pm**

Joe621 wrote:
EdLee wrote:Hi Joe,

Then it depends on which scoring system you're using, area scoring v. territory scoring. ( re: assumption in post 2 )
There are nuances; Sensei's Library probably has some nice discussions.
Territory scoring is all I know, so territory.

Since you and your grandfather are bootstrapping yourselves, I suggest that you play so that you can keep playing the game out and capture dead stones without penalty. Just play until all dead stones are captured. Area scoring lets you do that, and it is not difficult to learn.

Another go game that in effect uses territory scoring is the Capture Game. You keep playing until somebody captures one stone (at least), and that player wins. That is like territory scoring because you can reach a point where each player has only surrounded points left without having captured a stone, and the players may have to start filling their own territory, so that whoever has more territory wins.

Once you are used to the Capture Game, you can move on to Capture 2 (where the winner has to capture at least 2 stones) and then Capture 4. Capture 4 starts to look like regular go.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Board 2 $$ ----------------- $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | O . X X X X O | $$ | O . X . . X O | $$ | O . X . . X O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | . O O . . . O | $$ | O . O O O O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

For instance, in Capture 4 on this board the Black stones are dead. If White plays first the play might go like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Capture 4 $$ ----------------- $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | O 1 X X X X O | $$ | O 2 X 7 8 X O | $$ | O 3 X 9 0 X O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | . O O 4 5 6 O | $$ | O . O O O O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Both players start off playing outside the Black eye.

captures 2 stones. Play continues.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 Capture 4 $$ ----------------- $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | O X X 1 X X O | $$ | O O X 2 X X O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | . O O X O X O | $$ | O . O O O O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

captures one more stone, for a total of 3 stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 Capture 4 $$ ----------------- $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | O X X 3 X X O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | O O X X X X O | $$ | . O O X O X O | $$ | O . O O O O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

But then

captures 18 Black stones, to win.

You could keep going, and play Capture 7, and so on, but Capture 4 gives you a basic idea of which stones are dead or not. It's still different from regular go, though.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 8:55 pm**

Thanks Bill,
I have to look more into the capture game. The rule book that came with my go set did not explain that, it was very vague.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2018 9:23 pm**

Hi Bill, I didn't know or think of capture-2 or capture-n, until now.
Nice to add to the bag of goodies for day 1. Thanks.

Life In 19x19

Territory inside territory question.

Territory inside territory question.

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