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 Post subject: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:01 am 
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The Annual General Meeting looks to contain two motions on rating. One is about online ratings, we can only imagine what will happen there.

The second is about the control of submissions to the EuropeanGoDatabase. The proposal is basically that only accounts owned by National Go Associations should be allowed to submit tournament results. The idea is to ensure that tournaments really meet the required standards, and that nobody gets to use the databse for free. I imagine this might provoke some interest. There is some bad history with corrupt or incompetent official organisations in Europe. There is also a constant refusal from certain parts to close access to ratings.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:48 am 
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The second proposal would exclude WAGC for example from the EGD.

I have been trying to support go in Estonia, which is not yet member of the EGF. Their tournaments would also be excluded.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:08 am 
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Yes, that would be a negative aspect.

Strange point of trivia: Kazakhstan has never submitted a tournament to the EGD despite being an EGF member for many years.

Another point to consider - does the EGF really own the EGD? Not sure their relationship is like that.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:18 am 
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Also, the motion forces EGF to decide whether Russian Go Federarion or Ukrainian Go Federation is allowed to submit tournaments played in Krim are.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:19 am 
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Same in Northern Ireland, and perhaps in Spain too.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:40 am 
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Javaness2 wrote:
Another point to consider - does the EGF really own the EGD? Not sure their relationship is like that.

I quote from the regulations article 25:
Code:
The EGF owns all Official European Ranking Lists and is the beneficial owner of any and all intellectual property rights which may now or at any time in the future exist anywhere in the world in respect of any data or information resulting from the ranking of players competing at the Events and Competitions held under its authority.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Quote:
The EGF owns all Official European Ranking Lists and is the beneficial owner of any and all intellectual property rights which may now or at any time in the future exist anywhere in the world in respect of any data or information resulting from the ranking of players competing at the Events and Competitions held under its authority.


IANAL and all that, but I remain to be convinced that this is legal, especially the "anywhere in the world" bit.

Here's one entertaining view of the issue:

http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2016/05/co ... ctory.html


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:29 am 
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This discussion path may be a bit too difficult for the General Meeting to tackle. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:59 am 
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Quote:
The EGF ... is the beneficial owner of any and all intellectual property rights which may now or at any time in the future exist anywhere in the world in respect of any data or information resulting from the ranking of players competing at the Events and Competitions held under its authority.


The data is currently freely available via http://www.europeangodatabase.eu without any need to accept or agree to any terms of use declaring that the EGF lay claim to all "intellectual property" that may arise from use of that data. In fact, my scouring of the EGD website completely failed to reveal any terms of use in any form.

Regulations article 25 appears to be pure bluster.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:49 am 
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If the EGF doesn't be annoying about article 25 I won't be annoying about GDPR ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #11 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:29 am 
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There has always been a conflict between those who want to use the rating system just to rate players, and those who want to use the rating system to separate tournaments by importance.
Now that we can cheat with our mobile phones, and we don't have to make an excuse to take another guy (or girl) into the toilet with us, is it the time to add a new Secure Tournament qualification? Probably to be class A mobile phones should be 'handed in to the referee' or something like that.


EGF wrote:
EGF recognizes four tournament categories:
class A:
well organized tournament, recognized by EGF member
time limit requirements: adjusted time minimum 75 minutes, basic time minimum 60 minutes; (Fischer time: basic time 45 mins, adj. time for 120 moves: 75 mins - see remarks)
weight for inclusion to EGF ratings: 1.00
class B:
well organized tournament recognized by EGF member
time limit requirements: adjusted time minimum 50 minutes, basic time minimum 40 minutes; (Fischer time: basic time 30 mins, adj. time for 120 moves: 50 mins - see remarks)
weight for inclusion to EGF ratings: 0.75
class C:
casual or club tournament recognized by EGF member
time limit requirements: adjusted time minimum 30 minutes, basic time minimum 25 minutes; (Fischer time: basic time 20 mins, adj. time for 120 moves: 30 mins - see remarks)
weight for inclusion to EGF ratings: 0.50
class D:
Tournaments played on Internet, accepted since 28th July 2015
time limit requirements: adjusted time minimum 50 minutes, basic time minimum 40 minutes; (Fischer time: basic time 30 mins, adj. time for 120 moves: 50 mins - see remarks)
weight for inclusion to EGF ratings: 0.25
Only tournaments held by national organisations, member of the EGF, are accepted for inclusion into this class. The organisers must ensure that all the games have been played fairly, and all the players are members of EGF members.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #12 Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:08 pm 
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In 2011 I went to Colombia for 3 months and met with the members of the Bogota Go club - Salto del Mico (which means monkey jump) and discovered that we had go friends in common because of Europeans who had met Colombians while attending training in Korea or world amateur matches.

The following year I attended the IberoAmericano tournament in Bogota - http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Tournament_Card.php?&key=T121012B&pin=10250163 and asked that the results be submitted to the European Go Database - which is perhaps why the link above exists.

I do not think that we should exclude non European countries from recording their results in the European Go Database - particularly when a tournament includes one or more European players as I think we should try to widen participation in tournaments and encourage travel between countries. There are in fact many examples of non European tournaments recorded the European Go database - for example see the record of http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Player_Card.php?&key=13949496.

When I look at the list of tournaments in Spain, the vast majority seem to be in Sevilla the home town of the proposer of the motion - but I think that we should be grateful for the efforts of those who organise tournaments elsewhere in Spain and who submit the results to the EGD and it should be the Spanish who rejig their organisation rather than it being policed by the European Go Database - tournaments in Spain are a precious thing and we should try to encourage them.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #13 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:47 am 
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The first rating motion was now published. It is in fact just asking a question to the AGM. Should online tournaments still be allowed in the system or not?

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #14 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:15 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
If the EGF doesn't be annoying about article 25 I won't be annoying about GDPR ;-)


According to Aldo Podvani, there have been updates regarding the GDPR, which I understand is a beast.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #15 Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:10 am 
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The result of this is now known.
Motion 1)
i) Internet Tournaments can still be submitted to the EGD and will have the same weighting as before (0.25)
ii) The online EuroTeams will not be rated. Some part of the EuroTeams will now be played face to face, details to come...

Motion 2)
Only approved accounts can now be used to submit tournaments to the EGD.

I am a bit surprised at this, because the text "we want to propose that all submitting accounts in EGD must be approved by the EGF member representing the country where the tournament takes place" is pretty restrictive. Coming from there, I have to wonder if the meeting clarified what happens to tournaments held in Northern Ireland. Goodbye to tournaments from Estonia.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #16 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:35 pm 
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Javaness2 wrote:
The result of this is now known.

Motion 2)
Only approved accounts can now be used to submit tournaments to the EGD.

I am a bit surprised at this, because the text "we want to propose that all submitting accounts in EGD must be approved by the EGF member representing the country where the tournament takes place" is pretty restrictive. Coming from there, I have to wonder if the meeting clarified what happens to tournaments held in Northern Ireland. Goodbye to tournaments from Estonia.


My understanding is that this went through at the end of the meeting. Also, I spoke to Spanish players at the EGC (from Madrid I think) who told me that they were not in favour of the motion. Sadly, the British Go Association voted for the motion.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Ratings Motions
Post #17 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:42 pm 
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richardamullens wrote:

My understanding is that this went through at the end of the meeting. Also, I spoke to Spanish players at the EGC (from Madrid I think) who told me that they were not in favour of the motion. Sadly, the British Go Association voted for the motion.


Technically, and it will only be technically, it means that international events like the KPMC and the WAGC can no longer be submitted and approved.

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