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Unreasonable fuseki by white
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:23 am
by Gomoto
I experience a recent trend when I play this ...
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$
I always get this answer:
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This is not a good option, but nobody seems to know. Black should be aware of the important continuations, else there are some pitfalls.
Re: Unreasonable fuseki by white
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:27 am
by Gomoto
Variation 1:
Good for black.
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
(Dont be afraid. The exchange 7 for 8 is even worse for white.)
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Re: Unreasonable fuseki by white
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:34 am
by Gomoto
Variation 2:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Now there is only one black move if you want to win:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Re: Unreasonable fuseki by white
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:38 am
by Gomoto
Variation 3:
Very good for black
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
And again the next move is essential:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Re: Unreasonable fuseki by white
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:16 am
by Elom
What If instead of playing the hane, white goes for one of the avalanches by bumping at the starpoint?
Re: Unreasonable fuseki by white
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:59 am
by Gomoto
The simple variation would be good enough for black. You could also choose the more complicated continuations.
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Re: Unreasonable fuseki by white
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:58 am
by xoxox
I am new to game, do don't know much. Recently started studying fuseki so I might be totally wrong. What about this variation:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Re: Unreasonable fuseki by white
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:01 pm
by Tryss
That's catastrophic for black :
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Now black has 3 weak groups, and white has a nice one
Re: Unreasonable fuseki by white
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:00 pm
by Leon
I also encounter this online. I usually ignore the white approach and just take the corner. Is this fine too?
Re: Unreasonable fuseki by white
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:04 pm
by Gomoto
@Leon, possible but the variations are quite complicated. I dont like complicated options if I have simpler alternatives
Re: Unreasonable fuseki by white
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:02 pm
by Calvin Clark
xoxox wrote: I am new to game, do don't know much. Recently started studying fuseki so I might be totally wrong. What about this variation:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Your variation starts to go wrong at
, which is sometimes used as a probe if it's hard to decide whether 'a' or 'b' is better, but it's still rare. But let's say white plays
anyway. A question for stronger players is should black continue at a, b, c, tenuki at e, or something else like your move at d?
Different networks evaluate the position a bit differently, but there is an agreement among these three that a (O3) is best. The ELF networks, as usual, are merciless, but I think the best Leela Zero network (68824bbc as of this post) is probably giving results closer to what amateurs might expect.
The issue with 'd' is that the clamp doesn't affect
and
much, as they already have enough liberties, and it leaves two weaknesses, plus Tryss's follow-up is really bad for black.
These are the numbers from black's point of view for the different follow-ups. (I don't like to call them winrates, because that's deeply misleading.)
Code: Select all
Move Best LZ ELF V0 ELF V1
O3 (a) 53.2 71.2 66.5
Q3 (c) 47 49.6 49.2
Q4 (b) 47.1 49.8 48.1
D16 (e) 42.5 44.8 48.2
P5 (d) 26 1.1 2.8
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:31 pm
by EdLee
Hi Calvin,
Thanks. What's the engines' best sequence for both B and W if
,
:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
( Instead of winrates, do you have other candidates for the evaluation numbers ? Thanks. )
Re:
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:54 pm
by Calvin Clark
EdLee wrote: Hi Calvin,
Thanks. What's the engines' best sequence for both B and W if
,
:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
( Instead of winrates, do you have other candidates for the evaluation numbers ? Thanks. )
White wants to start the avalanche, not cut at
. I think pros do that, too. However, the avalanche is not quite the textbook one. Take this with a grain of salt as I have found that specific variations jump around a bit depending on the number of visits per play.
Interestingly, I found a game with this avalanche variation. It was one of the Master games on Tygem:
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:15 am
by EdLee
Thanks, Calvin.
Re: Unreasonable fuseki by white
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:12 pm
by xoxox
Tryss wrote:
Now black has 3 weak groups, and white has a nice one
Yes you are right but I think none of those groups are dead and have potential to secure some territory, right?
, which is sometimes used as a probe if it's hard to decide whether 'a' or 'b' is better, but it's still rare. But let's say white plays 
and 
, 
: