Life In 19x19

Posted: **Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:53 am**

See title, I'm looking for some introductory information on how to deal with 3-4 enclosures, specifically large knight and two point jump.

I checked senseis, but the information there is pretty bare overall.

Josekipedia on the other hand is a bit overwhelming, lots of variations with little explanation.

Something ideal would be a lecture or two that go over the most common post alpha-go variations or a book that gives a little introduction to the situation.

Thanks in advance

Posted: **Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:08 am**

Basic Idea: Usually you should stay away from the large knight move enclosure until quite late in the game (only think about invading or reducing after some moves happened on the outside). But this is by no means an introductory issue. Pros struggle with this question as well.

Some example games:

Shin Jinseo, 9p - Shin Minjun, 9p, W+R (Komi 6.5)
year 2018 Korean League, round 13, 2018-09-30

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . X . O O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a and b were (much) better options for white

Kono Rin, 9p - Akiyama Jiro, 9p, W+2.5 (Komi 6.5)
66th Japanese NHK Cup, round 2, 2018-09-23

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . a . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

again a and b were better options for white

and one final example:

Chang Suyeong, 9p - Paek Seongho, 9p, B+R (Komi 6.5)
3rd Korea Senior Baduk League, round 14, 2018-09-19

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . O . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . X , . . . . 1 , X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a is the best option, b if you insist playing in the local area

Posted: **Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:30 am**

You ask about a book or lecture. If you want to learn about tactical situations today I recommend this different approach. Aquire a pro database like Go4Go, search the situation with Kombilo and review with AI. (Books are not up to date and wrong quite often.)

I like tsume go books by the way, even the old ones

Posted: **Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:16 am**

My approach is different to Gomoto's: attach early and often to large low shimaris. It might not be the best but it's fun!

Posted: **Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:54 pm**

Thanks for your suggestions, however I don't think either way is the right approach for me.

@Gomoto: I usually go over my own games with LZ and get my joseki from what I get there (so at least its relevant to the games I play), but these enclosures don't show up often enough to get a cohesive picture, but they are there often enough that its a pain not knowing how to deal with them. It seems like LZ is highly sensitive to the local and whole board situation, something that I can't replicate, so I'm looking for a handful of ways that are "just ok" but generally applicable.

@Uberdude: I really don't like this "go in and improvise" approach, more often than not it ends badly for me.

Posted: **Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:40 pm**

paK0 wrote:@Uberdude: I really don't like this "go in and improvise" approach, more often than not it ends badly for me.

IMHO, in go you can't really avoid some degree of jumping into the river to learn how to swim. Fortunately, when you drown, as I have done many, many times, all that dies are stones.

Posted: **Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:19 pm**

Bill Spight wrote:
paK0 wrote:@Uberdude: I really don't like this "go in and improvise" approach, more often than not it ends badly for me.
IMHO, in go you can't really avoid some degree of jumping into the river to learn how to swim. Fortunately, when you drown, as I have done many, many times, all that dies are stones.

Still try to swim, though. Sometimes I feel like I'm just flailing.

Posted: **Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:55 am**

Here's an sgf with some of the most common new josekis from AI around the big shimaris:

Posted: **Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:56 am**

@Bill: True, but that doesn't mean I can't get some information beforehand

@Uberdude: Thanks, that is amazing.

Posted: **Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:56 am**

strong AIs, like Go Seigen, seems to see small shimari as a bit slow and liable to overconcentration

The first time I read this, I started wondering since when we started classifying Go Seigen as a strong AI

Posted: **Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:16 am**

Fuseki example were an early attachment seems reasonable:
(a,b,c,d are viable alternatives for white)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . c . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

example continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 7 5 3 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 4 1 X 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X O O O 4 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X O O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 3 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:47 pm**

Thanks uberdude, won my tournament game with the attachment today:

: large34.jpg (162.89 KiB) Viewed 9879 times

Posted: **Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:52 pm**

a and b are good options for white in this case:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . | $$ | . . X b . . . . . , . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures

Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures